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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
With CarPlay being a really good product, and with Porsche being cheap and not offering navigation as standard, I know a lot of folks were saying "I'll just use CarPlay."

I can say that on my drive home from PEC LA, mostly on Highway 1 and 101, there was a lot of time where I didn't have signal. And when we got to Highway 1 finally (over Nacimiento-Fergusson road, which I will NEVER drive again) it was really nice to be able to just search for the name of our lunch stop and not worry. There are times where an on-board system comes in handy. :)

P.S. - the voice is the same voice as Mazda uses, but she says different things.
 

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As much as many think these Garmin GPS units look ugly on your dash or windshield (including me), they are pretty much bulletproof in operation.

I drove all over Prince Edward Island a while back (where cell service is sketchy) and one of these got me everywhere I wanted to go (we were in a bare-bones rental car but I brought my Garmin with me on the plane to PEI).

We tow to race tracks all over the northeast and in many rural areas with weak cell service (such as Summit Point, Palmer, Tamworth, etc) the GPS has always worked.

These things cost less than $80 and they come with lifetime map update free....and they can do a basic version of traffic updates too.

We do occasionally use our phone to double check traffic conditions......but that's not always possible.

https://g.factoryoutletstore.com/details/515058/garmin-drive-50lmt.html
 

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Cross post from P9:

<<My 718 has CarPlay. I run an iPhone X. On a recent road trip to Colorado, I purchased a Garmin GPS unit and used it during the trip, partially to compare the two reception-wise and partially to be covered when -- not if, but when -- the iPhone couldn't receive a signal in the Colorado mountains.

You see, what [member name redacted] says about smartphones using a GPS signal is only partially true because a smartphone only uses GPS intermittently to determine things like which cell towers to communicate with after cell signal is lost. It is not 'always on' like a device that uses GPS as its primary like the navigation in PCM or a portable GPS unit.

I would estimate that my iPhone only received a viable signal for Maps to work on about half the 3,200-mile trip. My Garmin unit, meanwhile, worked the entire time. This completely backed up what I expected to happen.

Bottom line: If you drive in areas without reliable cell service often, get the PCM Nav module. Otherwise you are at the mercy of cell towers for location information. Trust me on this. I tested it firsthand just a week ago.>>


I'm currently in what is now an argument with one of the P9 moderators about GPS functionality in smartphones. The gentleman is contradicting himself left and right, so I'm probably going to let it go ... but just be aware that a smartphone is not designed to be a dedicated GPS unit, great mapping apps or no.
 
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Cross post from P9:

You see, what [member name redacted] says about smartphones using a GPS signal is only partially true because a smartphone only uses GPS intermittently to determine things like which cell towers to communicate with after cell signal is lost. It is not 'always on' like a device that uses GPS as its primary like the navigation in PCM or a portable GPS unit.

That's interesting and good to know. I would have expected a phone with a GPS map app to be always on, at least when in the app and work much like a dedicated GPS unit. No so it seems based on your research and first hand experience. I may have to check on this closer as well as I have a hunting GPS map and it seems to always be on when in the app as it seems to update constantly my position. Perhaps depends on the app and how its being used?
 

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I don't use car play, but I do use google maps/android auto (I keep my phone on a mount). With google maps you can, in most cases (Tokyo being one exception I'm aware of) download the maps and POI database for places where cell service is sketchy. Cell phones are better in almost every way to older stand-alone GPS (don't have any modern ones to compare to).

Things that makes cell phone navigation better than older stand-alone GPS (some newer stand-alones have similar features):

1. Free and frequent map updates (google/apple maps are updated way more often than most in-dash units)
2. Traffic data over cellular
3. Better accelerometers used for dead reckoning when GPS signal is weak
4. Frequent base SW updates which add new features like voices/POI logos/etc.
5. Cell tower triangulation, also for when GPS signal is weak
6. Wifi triangulation, "

I'm sure I can think of some more.

The only real pro's of built-in navigation are:

1. Bigger, always there display
2. Better GPS reception


Here is a help guide for downloading google maps....

https://support.google.com/maps/answer/6291838?co=GENIE.Platform=Android&hl=en
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I don't use car play, but I do use google maps/android auto (I keep my phone on a mount).
I find that to be a poor experience. Trying to stare at a tiny phone is bad.

Goldtrom said:
With google maps you can, in most cases (Tokyo being one exception I'm aware of) download the maps and POI database for places where cell service is sketchy.
IF you know where you're going to be going, and IF you know that coverage there is poor, then sure.

Goldtrom said:
Things that makes cell phone navigation better than older stand-alone GPS (some newer stand-alones have similar features):
We're not talking about older stand-alone. We're talking about PCM4 in the 718.

Goldtrom said:
1. Free and frequent map updates (google/apple maps are updated way more often than most in-dash units)
2. Traffic data over cellular
718 does this.

Goldtrom said:
3. Better accelerometers used for dead reckoning when GPS signal is weak
Unknown if 718 does this, but given the accelerometers it does have I would imagine they're used.

Goldtrom said:
5. Cell tower triangulation, also for when GPS signal is weak
Useless for navigation. A-GPS helps speed time to initial fix. It's not used for navi at all.
 

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718 doesn't have *free* updates or *free* traffic data, you have to pay monthly fee for it. No thanks.

Triangulation is used pretty much the same as the GPS for finding location given some sampling rate interval, not just for "initial fix". It's not used for dead reckoning (neither is GPS). GPS adds speed and altitude over triangulation, but altitude requires 4 satellites and can be deduced from barometric pressure which many modern cell phones haves (not sure about the 718 navigation, but I doubt it has pressure).

As to the poor experience, everything is a trade off. I find not having traffic data for free a poor experience. And most phones are over 5.8" these days, that's big enough for me.

You're welcome to rationalize the use of the built in navigation (BTW, I work for a company involved in the HW development of the PCM 4.0, not saying that as an appeal to authority, just that I had something to gain by getting it and didn't). For me the cell phone is better. Also note I have the navigation in my 2015 Macan (PCM 3.1) and love it, but the lack of free updates and traffic data means I have to use my phone pretty often.
 

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One other fairly obvious benefit of using cell phones is frequent HW revisions without need to replace the PCM ;). Most people upgrade their phones on a regular basis.

For example, next year we can expect GNSS support which should improve accuracy over GPS in most android phones:

https://woolpert.com/resource/accurate-navigation-coming-to-a-phone-near-you/
https://medium.com/@sjbarbeau/dual-frequency-gnss-on-android-devices-152b8826e1c

Wouldn't it be great if we could get android auto on the PCM.
 

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One other fairly obvious benefit of using cell phones is frequent HW revisions without need to replace the PCM ;). Most people upgrade their phones on a regular basis.

For example, next year we can expect GNSS support which should improve accuracy over GPS in most android phones:

https://woolpert.com/resource/accurate-navigation-coming-to-a-phone-near-you/
https://medium.com/@sjbarbeau/dual-frequency-gnss-on-android-devices-152b8826e1c

Wouldn't it be great if we could get android auto on the PCM.
Wouldn't it be great if phone GPS would work in the mountains. Or in central Nebraska. Or most of Wyoming. Or in, say, Chechnya. Or deep in the Scottish Highlands. Or the depths of Sicily.

Just sayin'. Phones aren't meant to replace dedicated GPS units. They simply aren't designed to do so.
 

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Wouldn't it be great if phone GPS would work in the mountains. Or in central Nebraska. Or most of Wyoming. Or in, say, Chechnya. Or deep in the Scottish Highlands. Or the depths of Sicily.

Just sayin'. Phones aren't meant to replace dedicated GPS units. They simply aren't designed to do so.

While I can't argue about what a phone is designed to do. I don't understand your points. Phone GPS capabilities work pretty much anywhere you can take your 718. You can download data for just about any location even hiking. Yes, I've used my phone GPS hiking. I've downloaded pretty much the entire west coast, including Canada Vancouver area (I'm actually going there this weekend). Now a phone won't work in extreme cold, but how cold is it inside your car? I can certainly use it anywhere in Nebraska or Wyoming that google/apple have maps for (which is probably more than the built-in navigation).

My original post wasn't really to disparage people from getting the built-in navigation, it was to point out that you don't need cell service to use your phones GPS. You do lose traffic data and some more advanced routing, but if you don't have cell service then you lose those things on your built in navigation too (they also use cellular).

The main advantage of the built-in is the larger always there display. That's a huge advantage, but not enough for many to pay extra for it.
 

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While I can't argue about what a phone is designed to do. I don't understand your points. Phone GPS capabilities work pretty much anywhere you can take your 718. You can download data for just about any location even hiking. Yes, I've used my phone GPS hiking. I've downloaded pretty much the entire west coast, including Canada Vancouver area (I'm actually going there this weekend). Now a phone won't work in extreme cold, but how cold is it inside your car? I can certainly use it anywhere in Nebraska or Wyoming that google/apple have maps for (which is probably more than the built-in navigation).

My original post wasn't really to disparage people from getting the built-in navigation, it was to point out that you don't need cell service to use your phones GPS. You do lose traffic data and some more advanced routing, but if you don't have cell service then you lose those things on your built in navigation too (they also use cellular).

The main advantage of the built-in is the larger always there display. That's a huge advantage, but not enough for many to pay extra for it.
You've just proven my point. To use a phone as a dedicated GPS as its primary mode, you must stop or not use some other functions your phone supplies -- including functions that your phone is actually designed to supply better than anything else. I'm sorry: That is not a good tradeoff for most.

Furthermore, to use your phone in that mode, it must be plugged into power. If it is not, the battery will be spent within a couple of hours. The GPS antenna in the typical smartphone has a fraction of the sensitivity that the one a dedicated GPS unit uses; that's part of the reason they don't work well, if at all, in remote areas.

Finally: I'm not sure where you've used your phone as a GPS unit while hiking, but if you relied on it and nothing else in a remote area, that's not a very savvy thing to do. I've done multi-day wilderness hiking in locations such as West Texas, British Columbia, Tuscany, Alaska, and the aforementioned Scottish Highlands. Smartphones are useless in those places in any capacity.

Look: there are watches that have built-in GPS. There are also GPS units purpose built for hiking, trekking, boating, underwater use, etc. Would you use any of those in lieu of Nav in a car?

Phone GPS capabilities work pretty much anywhere you can take your 718.
No, it doesn't. Read Post #4 by yours truly in this same thread here. I actually tested it during a recent multi-day road trip. There's absolutely no comparison.
 

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You've just proven my point. To use a phone as a dedicated GPS as its primary mode, you must stop or not use some other functions your phone supplies -- including functions that your phone is actually designed to supply better than anything else. I'm sorry: That is not a good tradeoff for most.
I really don't think I said anything that proved your point. I don't really know what your point is. This thread, per the first post, was about in-car (built in or stand alone) GPS being better than a phone because the phone doesn't always have data. I've pointed out many times that is not 100% valid point and is misleading. You can if you use a little planning download data for most places you would want to go. And by most I mean more than the 718 built in one works. Now there may be some stand alone off roader unit or under water or whatever that is better, but thats was never my point. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, am I being clear now? We can keep going, but we are way off the original topic.

Is an in-car unit more convenient? In many ways yes, but is it better because it doesn't need a cell connection? Not in my opinion and I don't really see how anyone can argue otherwise. Nothing you have said has convinced me. I like to hear all side of an argument, I'm in no way angry, so if you have some other reason why in-car navigation is better than a phone please keep on sending it my way. I'm just pretty entrenched in my position at this point.


Furthermore, to use your phone in that mode, it must be plugged into power. If it is not, the battery will be spent within a couple of hours. The GPS antenna in the typical smartphone has a fraction of the sensitivity that the one a dedicated GPS unit uses; that's part of the reason they don't work well, if at all, in remote areas.

Finally: I'm not sure where you've used your phone as a GPS unit while hiking, but if you relied on it and nothing else in a remote area, that's not a very savvy thing to do. I've done multi-day wilderness hiking in locations such as West Texas, British Columbia, Tuscany, Alaska, and the aforementioned Scottish Highlands. Smartphones are useless in those places in any capacity.

Look: there are watches that have built-in GPS. There are also GPS units purpose built for hiking, trekking, boating, underwater use, etc. Would you use any of those in lieu of Nav in a car?



No, it doesn't. Read Post #4 by yours truly in this same thread here. I actually tested it during a recent multi-day road trip. There's absolutely no comparison.

Your single post is anecdotal data. I have lots of anecdotal data that shows my phone was better than my Macan. If I'm going more than 100 miles I usually use both waze and my Macan's built-in navigation. I can tell you there are times one will wonder and the other wont. Usually if I miss a turn waze re-routes much faster. I've driven plenty of places without cell coverage and had no issues with the phone. I've also driven places where the macan had an out of date map and I followed it to a dead end or other such bad routing issues, but the phone knew about the issue. On a whole, I've had less issues with the phone then I have with the built in. Heck my built in crashes from time to time (I just got an update that should hopefully fix that). Waze has been more stable (not gonna claim it never crashes).

As to sensitivity of the GPS. I don't know what you mean by that. Are you talking about signal to noise? Are you talking about sample rate? In either case being in a remote area with clear view to the sky should have no real world difference between a dedicated GPS and a phone GPS. The signal to noise, i.e., the reception is better on the stand alone and in areas with interference AND no triangulation (your remote area, but must be in the mountains or something) will be better on a standalone/built-in unit. There are work arounds to that like a bluetooth GPS receiver, but I really didn't want to go that route.

Sample rate mostly matters in cities or race tracks, but in cities often the GPS is blocked which makes sample rate meaningless. Triangulation combined with dead reckoning is mostly used when GPS is blocked for extended periods. And once all the GNSS stuff comes on-line the phone should be better than the PCM 4 (which doesn't to my knowledge have support for GNSS).

Totally agree to your points about non-incar usage. My point in bringing up hiking is it really shouldn't work there, not that it was a good replacement for a true dedicated hiking unit. I mostly used it around the Columbia River Gorge, and had decent success with it.

Also agree to your point about battery being an issue, but its not hard to solve, so I don't really see it being a detractor more than any other negatives of using a phone. I'm mostly in the phone is better because its cheaper (map updates and traffic are free).

As to using your phone for phone things, well here in Oregon and probably in most places its illegal to use your phone without a hands free device while driving. I can do everything on my phone that I'm legally allowed to use it for while also using it for a navigation device (which I'm pretty sure is legal). Did it just yesterday, responded to an SMS using the google assistant while listening to Spotify (which pauses when you say "OK Google") and navigating to a location. Android auto lets you do all that. Admittedly, on my S7 it didn't all work, but my new S9 seems to work. But then, I doubt it would have worked even if I wasn't using the navigation, it was the google assistant that gave me issues.

Hope this thread is at least dispelling some of the mis-information, which is all I was hoping to do. Gotta sprinkle in some opinions here and there just for fun though.
 

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I know I'm rambling on. There was one more piece of info I wanted to get out for those who use carplay, which was kind of the OP's issue (it not working without data). In iOS 12 google maps will be available on car play. So all my ramblings about using google maps will apply to you car play users sometime later this year. Just something to think about when deciding to give porsche your hard earned money for the built-in navigation...

Also, I checked and apple maps also has a way to download the data. No experience with it. But they had to re-write the whole mapping back-end recently because of all the complaints about apple maps. Having google maps on car play should make my wife happy (yeah we are a split android/iOS house).
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
718 doesn't have *free* updates or *free* traffic data, you have to pay monthly fee for it. No thanks.
Sure, up to you. I'm paying for an integrated experience. I love seeing the map in the instrument cluster, not a phone on a mount like I'm driving for Uber.

As to the poor experience, everything is a trade off. I find not having traffic data for free a poor experience. And most phones are over 5.8" these days, that's big enough for me.
To my mind, if you're buying a car like this and you complain about the traffic data costing money you chose the wrong brand. Just my opinion.

You're welcome to rationalize the use of the built in navigation
I'm not "rationalizing" it. That would imply the phone provides a better experience. In this case it does not.

One other fairly obvious benefit of using cell phones is frequent HW revisions without need to replace the PCM ;). Most people upgrade their phones on a regular basis.
That's because I ask my phone to do things I don't ask my car to do.

I really don't think I said anything that proved your point. I don't really know what your point is. This thread, per the first post, was about in-car (built in or stand alone) GPS being better than a phone because the phone doesn't always have data. I've pointed out many times that is not 100% valid point and is misleading. You can if you use a little planning download data for most places you would want to go. And by most I mean more than the 718 built in one works. Now there may be some stand alone off roader unit or under water or whatever that is better, but thats was never my point. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, am I being clear now? We can keep going, but we are way off the original topic.
You can do what you want. I don't at all agree that the statement is misleading. You don't always know when you're going to have coverage or not. I like having the option. And I don't like to having to worry about "Oh did I remember to download maps?" Yeah, whatever.

I also don't use my phone on the bike. Phones SHOULD work great for that, but if they did then most folks wouldn't have Garmins.

Hope this thread is at least dispelling some of the mis-information, which is all I was hoping to do. Gotta sprinkle in some opinions here and there just for fun though.
No, what you're doing is portraying your opinions as facts, which can be annoying. (That's why I'm gonna ignore from here on.)

I know I'm rambling on. There was one more piece of info I wanted to get out for those who use carplay, which was kind of the OP's issue (it not working without data). In iOS 12 google maps will be available on car play. So all my ramblings about using google maps will apply to you car play users sometime later this year. Just something to think about when deciding to give porsche your hard earned money for the built-in navigation...
Again, can't understand why people sweat this so much on an expensive car...maybe a GTI would be better? I mean you bought a Tiguan with a Porsche badge on it...
 

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Holy monkey testicles. People like to resort to direct attacks over a debate on cell phone GPS vs Built-In navigation. Yes, telling someone they should have bought a non-luxury car over some luxury brand is a direct attack. I'm sorry to upset your (@JakiChan) sensibilities, but people are entitled to their opinions even if they are retarded. I'm open to honest debate, and yes I sweat the small things, thats how I got where I am. In fact that's almost the definition of my Job. That job has allowed me to buy not one but two brand new Porsches ordered to my exact spec.. Believe it or not the small things do matter.

With Porsche there is virtually no limit to options, you can turn a 60K car into a 100K car with just options and navigation is one of the most expensive. I set a reasonable limit *for me* on the price of the car and navigation got cut to get something else. There may be a few people on here that just go checking options without regard for price, but I bet they are in the minority....

I got navigation in the Macan for all the reasons everyone else says they get theirs, they wanted an integrated experience, not have to deal with a mount, battery issues etc. In the end I use my phone about 50% of the time. So when round two came and there was no android auto option and the built in maps required a monthly subscription I chose to voice my displeasure with the options by not buying them. Knowing that my phone was more than adequate for daily use. Are there situations where the incar is better? I haven't encountered one yet, so I guess I saved money and voiced my displeasure without hurting my experience. Maybe you should have gotten a BMW or Audi their in-car navigation systems are miles ahead of Porsche. And no thats not an attack, both of those makes have awesome cars.

As an aside, you don't seem to know what rationalizing means. Rationalizing is using logical arguments to convince yourself A is better than B, doesn't matter if A is better than B. I didn't mean it as an attack, simply that you are allowed to pick whatever reasons you want to decide that A is better than B. I'm actually not trying to debate cell phones are better in every way, just that most if not all of the reasons people give are wrong. There are apps that download the entire map, there are blue tooth GPS receivers that are better than the ones integrated into the car. The only arguments I see as a valid reason for picking the in-car one is the "integrated experience" as you put it. What does that mean? The always there larger screen (+MFD). Is lack of maps when offline a good reason? Not really, it can be proven that on-line maps are better in pretty much every objective measurement and can in fact be accessed offline. Accuracy goes to on-line HD maps. Update frequency, on-line maps (the downloaded ones get updated automatically). Routing, haven't seen any recent studies but its usually a toss up if you don't include traffic data. Traffic data? Anecdotal, but my phone routed around more traffic than the Macan GPS did. I'm pretty confident it would beat the PCM 4 navigation. POI database, google wins hands down there... My macan almost never finds what I'm looking for, I have to resort to my phone 99% of the time. Haven't used the PCM 4, I'm sure its "better" but not better than google.

Would I rather have an integrated experience WITH android auto (which can be made to use the cars built in antenna to get around any other of the downsides of using a phone GPS )? Yes, of course. But the current integrated system is not good enough to replace my phone.
 

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Mmmm, when I'm about to sleep with my gf, do I use integrated equipment, or a strap on as theoretically it has more features?/forum/images/718forum/smilies/tango_face_grin.png

Each to their own./forum/images/718forum/smilies/tango_face_wink.png
...LOL...just what this post needed...no joke! Starting to sound like some of those other forums we hear so many complaints about, so thanks for getting us off topic...loved your analogy!
 
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