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Another 718 Cayman review
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I think it takes a certain free-thinking confidence in one's own convictions to trade a 911 for a Boxster and much later, trade a n/a flat-six Boxster for a turbo-four. Both of which I did, and both of which felt like moving up to a better all-around package (incl. chassis and engine).
So after 17 years owning/driving n/a flat-sixes and now the turbo-four in pretty spirited fashion (exclusive of track work), I just don't fathom where these reviewers are coming from. Rationally, how can an engine be superior in every measurable facet of performance -- average and peak torque and horsepower, low-end grunt, mid-range punch, while still matching n/a responsiveness above 1800rpm and willingness to rev to a high redline -- all with greater efficiency (specific output), fuel economy and lower emissions -- yet still be perceived as somehow disappointing?
If it were exclusively about the sound, okay each entitled to one's own subjective sense of aesthetics (although rather extreme in over-weighting a non-performance-related element I'd say) -- but that's not the case here, he's saying sound-aside the turbo-four is disappointing.
Now, all my P-cars have been manuals, and he levels some specific charges at how the PDK and power-delivery interact....something I can't speak to personally, but have heard snippets here from our many PDK drivers on road and track. Is he tapping into some valid issue there unknown to us manual gearbox minority?
Otherwise, my dispassionate objective insights from driving the flat-six -- and it was a most gratifying and reliable sports-car engine -- only serve to make me more cognizant and appreciative of the step-forward the 9A2B4 represents in every way that relates to actual performance.
Still reviews like this are an annoying drip-drip-dripping repeat of the same mantra: something performance-related (apart from sound) is diminished. So can someone here with both flat-six and turbo-four experience help enlighten me please as to what exactly that is? Otherwise I can only explain this review as an example of perception-lag, where despite immediate evidence to the contrary, the brain remains locked-in to long-held, previously-unchallenged 'fact' -- in this case, that turbo equals lag, lack of responsiveness and lowered redline.
So after 17 years owning/driving n/a flat-sixes and now the turbo-four in pretty spirited fashion (exclusive of track work), I just don't fathom where these reviewers are coming from. Rationally, how can an engine be superior in every measurable facet of performance -- average and peak torque and horsepower, low-end grunt, mid-range punch, while still matching n/a responsiveness above 1800rpm and willingness to rev to a high redline -- all with greater efficiency (specific output), fuel economy and lower emissions -- yet still be perceived as somehow disappointing?
If it were exclusively about the sound, okay each entitled to one's own subjective sense of aesthetics (although rather extreme in over-weighting a non-performance-related element I'd say) -- but that's not the case here, he's saying sound-aside the turbo-four is disappointing.
Now, all my P-cars have been manuals, and he levels some specific charges at how the PDK and power-delivery interact....something I can't speak to personally, but have heard snippets here from our many PDK drivers on road and track. Is he tapping into some valid issue there unknown to us manual gearbox minority?
Otherwise, my dispassionate objective insights from driving the flat-six -- and it was a most gratifying and reliable sports-car engine -- only serve to make me more cognizant and appreciative of the step-forward the 9A2B4 represents in every way that relates to actual performance.
Still reviews like this are an annoying drip-drip-dripping repeat of the same mantra: something performance-related (apart from sound) is diminished. So can someone here with both flat-six and turbo-four experience help enlighten me please as to what exactly that is? Otherwise I can only explain this review as an example of perception-lag, where despite immediate evidence to the contrary, the brain remains locked-in to long-held, previously-unchallenged 'fact' -- in this case, that turbo equals lag, lack of responsiveness and lowered redline.
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Hey, @ZuffenHouseRules, very well expressed but but...............hmmmmmmmmmm............tell us what you really think.:laugh:
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I'm with you. I currantly own a 200 Boxster S & a 718 PDK Cayman. With the PDK, put it in SPORT and there is no issue. SOUND, I like the 718 better. The S is fun to shift at 5,000 rpm just to feel the hit at 4,000 rpm. The 3 other porsches I've owned were 4 bangers so I guess thats what I like. Change spark plugs = buy 4 instead of 6, etc..
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I admit, this one got my blood up, but it's only about the millionth review I've read/watched that rehashes a theme first popularized by Chris Harris -- one which has always struck me as so much posturing by the fashionably tasteful Chief Critic finding fault with the nearly-too-perfect successor to a much-loved but now-surpassed icon.
But I'll also admit to a flip-side to all this... it's far more fun championing the underdog, and these reviews make the 718 (at least its engine) feel like an underdog to me. Definitely a factor in my fascination (you all might be thinking obsession 0
) with analyzing and discussing the over-achieving real-world performance (and turbo power) of our much-maligned, unloved and under-appreciated Li'l Beast...eta: one thing I agree with Guido at 2:02: "this has become a seriously fast car....". Right, thanks to that puny turbo-four, Guido!!!
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Wow - that was some incoherent babble...maybe he should stick to talking German.
Let me sum this up:"The engine sucks. Something is wrong with the PDK. Which is a shame because the car is great." Idiot. :laugh:
Me thinks the guy doesn't know how to drive turbo cars. There is no PDK issue. Believe me, I've done 6000 miles.
Why does even years later an N/A enthusiast feel the need to chime in on the 718? It's really like sitting in a Ferrari and making the whole thing about how much you hate red cars.
Well the car is not for you, ok [email protected]#% off then. (this is how I really feel)
Want to get me started on the shortcomings of the 981...Maybe I need to make a video.
Now back to configuring my Cayman S...
Let me sum this up:"The engine sucks. Something is wrong with the PDK. Which is a shame because the car is great." Idiot. :laugh:
Me thinks the guy doesn't know how to drive turbo cars. There is no PDK issue. Believe me, I've done 6000 miles.
Why does even years later an N/A enthusiast feel the need to chime in on the 718? It's really like sitting in a Ferrari and making the whole thing about how much you hate red cars.
Well the car is not for you, ok [email protected]#% off then. (this is how I really feel)
Want to get me started on the shortcomings of the 981...Maybe I need to make a video.
Now back to configuring my Cayman S...
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I, we, welcome your Passion. I am relative Newbie to the supercar, Porsche thing so I benefit from hearing well thought out, and well expressed critiques. Basically, your just kickin a** and taking names.......BTW are you a East Coaster or possibly, dare I say it, a New Yorker? If not, you are hereby an honorary member.:laugh:I admit, this one got my blood up, but it's only about the millionth review I've read/watched that rehashes a theme first popularized by Chris Harris -- one which has always struck me as so much posturing by the fashionably tasteful Chief Critic finding fault with the nearly-too-perfect successor to a much-loved but now-surpassed icon.
But I'll also admit to a flip-side to all this... it's far more fun championing the underdog, and these reviews make the 718 (at least its engine) feel like an underdog to me. Definitely a factor in my fascination (you all might be thinking obsession 0
What sports car driver is in second gear at 15 mph? Second gear at 15 mph is only for granny driving and fuel efficiency. My modern sports cars pull strong in first until around 25mph.
In 2nd gear at 15 mph the engine was probably borderline lugging.
( I haven't picked up my Cayman GTS yet but if it doesn't pull in first gear at 15 mph, it is not sleeping in my garage.)
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Yes....I agree, it was nit picking a little bit. The observation was towards the end of his video. Many reviewers say the PDK is perfectly suited for the turbo flat 4.
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Ha!....no actually just a laid-back S.F. Bay Area ex-IT analyst (Gartner, IBM) with too much time on my hands esp. over coffee in the morning.
But I like a good technical mystery, and "how is this even possible?" (re: 718 real-world performance for its nominal power/weight) has proven to be a good one to research and ponder.
Plus that underdog status of the 9A2B4, coupled with my own experience putting it through its paces, provides 'a bee in my bonnet' for wanting to communicate just how unheralded an over-achiever it really is...
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Are you referring to his quote (after comparison test of 718 S PDK and 981 GT4 on the racetrack): "I could not tell it was a turbo engine".
So you've got on one hand an accomplished pro racing driver stating, in effect, the 718 S turbo has the responsiveness of a naturally-aspirated engine. On the other hand, Guido from AutoBild.de (a legitimate German car magazine) cites turbo-lag as a reason for missing the flat-six. Hmmmm......
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Randy Probst
In another test Randy compares a 718CS PDK to a GT4 at Willow Creek raceway. The GT4 beats the 718 by 2 seconds, but Randy mentions that the GT4 had R compound tires and the 718 had street tires. He said that if the 718 had R compound tires, it probably would have beat the GT4's time.
Today, I was entering Hwy 50 in Folsom,CA. Got behind some slow cars and since the freeway is four lanes and I am in second gear, after checking in my rearview mirror, I jumped on it and instantly hit 70 going slightly uphill. Didn't notice any turbo lag. Ever since the Top Gear Chris Harris B.S., I see these reviews that to me seem like these writers are just a bunch of followers. They must cringe to have to admit that the handling and ride are much improved over the 981S.
Amen.
In another test Randy compares a 718CS PDK to a GT4 at Willow Creek raceway. The GT4 beats the 718 by 2 seconds, but Randy mentions that the GT4 had R compound tires and the 718 had street tires. He said that if the 718 had R compound tires, it probably would have beat the GT4's time.
Today, I was entering Hwy 50 in Folsom,CA. Got behind some slow cars and since the freeway is four lanes and I am in second gear, after checking in my rearview mirror, I jumped on it and instantly hit 70 going slightly uphill. Didn't notice any turbo lag. Ever since the Top Gear Chris Harris B.S., I see these reviews that to me seem like these writers are just a bunch of followers. They must cringe to have to admit that the handling and ride are much improved over the 981S.
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All the UK motoring magazines have been critical of the turbo four - long before Chris Harris (who is a useless presenter on the now useless Top Gear) ever jumped on the bandwagon. They mainly object to the sound, which is a matter of opinion. However the consensus is that the 718 is a better car than the 981 in every other way. People don't like change, but it's being forced on car manufacturers by the need to increase the (perceived) economy of their cars to meet ever stricter regulations on efficiency. Smaller turbo engines give better fuel economy on their unrealistic tests than big n/a engines - even if, in real-life, there isn't much difference.
I haven't seen much criticism of the PDK, and it seems fine to me. Complaining that it doesn't get the right gear all the time is a bit unfair. It certainly doesn't always select the gear that I would choose but that's why you have the ability to override it either by using manual or just temporarily overruling it. It's certainly better at getting the right gear than Audi's S-Tronic IMO.
I haven't seen much criticism of the PDK, and it seems fine to me. Complaining that it doesn't get the right gear all the time is a bit unfair. It certainly doesn't always select the gear that I would choose but that's why you have the ability to override it either by using manual or just temporarily overruling it. It's certainly better at getting the right gear than Audi's S-Tronic IMO.
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In my opinion what Nick mentions isn't turbo lag - I'm not sure if he thinks it is or not.
However in my manual if you are going less than 15 mph it really wants to be in 1st gear. If you are in second gear it gets bogged down at anything less than 2nd gear. So you need to blip and downshift to first to get moving well. I suspect that the PDF likes to get into 2nd gear as fast as possible in most circumstances. So if it slows down to around 5-10 mph there could be hesitation with a PDK if it doesn't downshift to first. I think this is what Nick was feeling.
I didn't watch the above video, so can't comment on that one.
I don't notice any turbo lag in my CS. Compared to my 987 CS the 718 CS blows it away in every aspect.
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Bingo. Seems the distinction between 'turbo-lag' and too-low-rpm-relative-to-gearing 'bogging' (a phenomenon with all engines, n/a incl.; also experienced by the human 'engine' pedaling a bicycle in too-tall a gear) is not widely understood. A bogging engine -- like your leg muscles on the pedals taking a hill on the wrong chain-ring - feels strained, balking, and about to stall.
Porsche cautions against bogging any engine by driving in too high a gear. My manual S bogs-down in first gear going up my steep driveway at very low rpms -- I have to feather the clutch a bit to keep revs up.
That's the only situation I really notice it...when barely creeping along in second gear in traffic or a parking lot I preemptively shift down to first (or neutral) before rpms drop too low... <10mph in second seems like my typical downshift point but not real sure as I go mainly by feel.
This seems like a valid (though minor) point of criticism, but has more to with gear ratios and shifting habits than the engine itself.
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