[Blk718CS]

So I have a '19 718 Cayman S that serves both as my daily driver and track car. For what it's worth, it's completely stock, no PASM or any of the fancier suspension options. I'm an INT-2 driver, 4 years of experience and do about 5-10 track days a year. I've done 5 days in the cayman since I picked it up 4 months ago and after my last aggressive session at Lime Rock I noticed my drivers front tire was chunked pretty badly on the outside. I've ordered a set of RE-71Rs to replace my Eagle F1s, but I was thinking of adding a little negative camber. Can anyone recommend whether this makes sense for a daily driver? will 1-2 degrees make a difference on the track? front only or both front and rear? will it hurt my daily usage?

thanks in advance!
Mike

 

[faizaan2000]

For reference I have a '17 Cayman S that has seen 19 days on track, 8 on the original Yokohamas then Bridgestone S007A (slightly higher treadwear rating than RE71R since I do a lot of road miles). I've also got 23k miles in the last 15 months so it sees a lot of highway miles. I did 8 days on the factory alignment then had my shop dial in the alignment with their recommendation. I can't find the exact specs but I believe it was ~-1.5 deg front, and -1.6 deg rear with some changes to toe as well. I do have the SPASM but I don't think the difference in what is possible for alignment is dramatic.

The alignment will be noticeable on track and definitely a positive improvement, but on the stock suspension you won't be able to get too much front camber so I wouldn't worry about compromising daily usage. What I've found helps is just swapping the fronts on the rims at after a couple events to even out the wear if it's severe. FWIW it's much less pronounced on the Bridgestones, so maybe different tires or stiffer sidewalls make a difference, but that's just speculation.

TL;DR: I definitely recommend doing the alignment, paired with front tire swaps on the rim about halfway through their life.

 

[InTgr8r]

I run in the solo/adv. groups with many years under my belt.
IMO more neg. camber especially up front is a must to save tire wear and minimize understeer.
I was at the point were the stock settings were not enough and I added Elephant racing camber plates.

Last event I ran -2.0 front camber and -2.4 rear
The car was much better on track, but based on tire wear, I'll tweak the fronts to -2.2; rears were good.

More neg. front camber is fine for the street but you must also run zero toe to prevent tire wear on the street.
My car is every bit as much about street cruising & getaways with my wife as it is for track and my street tire wear is normal.

FWIW - On my previous, more dedicated track car (Z4M coupe), I ran -3.2 camber with zero toe and tire wear was normal.

 

[Blk718CS]

appreciate you guys weighing in. without a doubt, my normal tire wear has been more on the outside of the tread with a combination of track and street. . .So perhaps a little negative camber (less than 2 degrees) front and back will even this out AND help on track without really doing any harm to the daily driving characteristics. thanks!

 

[RussellHodgson]

For some more reference, I run Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires on track on my 718 CS. For me the rears wore out before the fronts. I got 11 days out of them. I never had chuncking, they just got worn down. My lap times at Lime Rock are around 1:05 (in dry conditions).

I have the standard suspension as well.

 

[[email protected]]

You need minimum -2 degrees all around for the track. The outside wear is from a lack of negative camber. I run -2.5 to -3 in my Cayman. You're likely going to need a method for adjusting camber in the front. The OE slotted top mounts are very limited in adjustment range. The GT3 LCAs work well for a dual purpose car. For cars that see a good bit of track time and aren't driven in the winter we lean towards SPL. Given you're on stock suspension I'd suggest GT3 LCAs.

 

[Blk718CS]

Russell, lrp is my main track. Pretty much always with scda and my times are also around 105 in my cayman. I’ll attach a pic of my eagle f1s after my last day there, my 5th ever on them (2 at Watkins 1 at Palmer and my second at lrp). Can’t wait to try the re71r and will likely add a touch of negative camber too after people’s suggestions here.

 

[nineball]

You need minimum -2 degrees all around for the track.

in my opinion tire choice has a lot to do with it. i run nitto nt01 and have stock suspension but adjusted it for as much negative camber as i can. i am pretty hard on my CS on the track and I have not had any real problems with uneven tire wear. the sidewalls on the nt01 are pretty stiff, so much so that once i had a flat and didn't even know it on the freeway until i got off. i usually do 3 day weekends and rotate the tires but the outsides are still the outsides. 4 sets of tires so far and all have worn evenly.

 

[[email protected]]

How much camber do you have?

in my opinion tire choice has a lot to do with it. i run nitto nt01 and have stock suspension but adjusted it for as much negative camber as i can. i am pretty hard on my CS on the track and I have not had any real problems with uneven tire wear. the sidewalls on the nt01 are pretty stiff, so much so that once i had a flat and didn't even know it on the freeway until i got off. i usually do 3 day weekends and rotate the tires but the outsides are still the outsides. 4 sets of tires so far and all have worn evenly.

 

[nineball]

How much camber do you have?

i have pasm and sport chrono so i have a little more adjustability that "stock" if you will, so i was able to get about ~1.5 on the front and ~1 on the rear.

 

[[email protected]]

i have pasm and sport chrono so i have a little more adjustability that "stock" if you will, so i was able to get about ~1.5 on the front and ~1 on the rear.

Those options don't get you any more negative camber in my experience. -1.5 really is not enough for aggressive track use. -2 is the bare minimum and -3 will work better. I run slicks and get 10 heat cycles or about 2 days with very even wear on tires.

 

[nineball]

Those options don't get you any more negative camber in my experience. -1.5 really is not enough for aggressive track use. -2 is the bare minimum and -3 will work better. I run slicks and get 10 heat cycles or about 2 days with very even wear on tires.

i don't run slicks so maybe it's not the same compounds i guess, but i'm no scientist i typically get 3-4 events out of a set of my nittos. i rotate them pretty frequently, track dependent, and have had even wear for 3 sets now.

 

[[email protected]]

i don't run slicks so maybe it's not the same compounds i guess, but i'm no scientist i typically get 3-4 events out of a set of my nittos. i rotate them pretty frequently, track dependent, and have had even wear for 3 sets now.

Rotating and flipping on the rims will certainly extend the life if you don't have enough camber. My setup isn't square so all I can do is flip them and they don't need it anyway. It's not really an issue of slicks vs street tires. Both suffer from low camber

 

[Semitone]

Last year I chunked my tires ( Michelin PS4S) one time out for DE. I had done quite a few AutoX events without an issue but totally destroyed my fronts with the one DE event.

I ordered some new fronts and brought my car in for an alignment. I realy liked the tires for the street so I stuck with them. The shop I brought my car to said they had seen a number of issues with the PS4S tires on the track.

I got a more aggressive alignment: Front -1.2 deg, Toe -.02 Rear -1.7 deg Toe .13. The shop said the initial setup was within spec for delivery but I didn't get the actual numbers.

Took the car out to another DE event with the new alignment and had no issues. So far so good. Also feels fine on the street.

When I was at Porsche Track School in Birmingham, the introductory course uses Cayman GTS and 911 GTS cars. They said the cars were completely stock. I should have delved deeper into alignment issues since those cars get quite a bit of abuse on the track. Not sure if they add anything to the suspension to make it easier to get more negative camber.

If anybody knows, it would be great to hear. If I find time maybe I'll just give them a call and find out what they do.

 

[don]

...The GT3 LCAs work well for a dual purpose car... Given you're on stock suspension I'd suggest GT3 LCAs.

So these can be used on the front and rear suspension to improve camber. On the front wouldn't you just use adjustable camber plates instead? Or is there an advantage to using the control arm kit front and rear?

 

[[email protected]]

Don, which camber plates are you looking at?

There's no advantage up front with GT3 arms other then track width increase (which you may or may not want).

So these can be used on the front and rear suspension to improve camber. On the front wouldn't you just use adjustable camber plates instead? Or is there an advantage to using the control arm kit front and rear?

 

[don]

Don, which camber plates are you looking at?

There's no advantage up front with GT3 arms other then track width increase (which you may or may not want).

Thanks, I was just trying to understand what these arms are for. Though I assume if you increase track on the rear you ideally want to increase by a similar amount on the front to maintain balance unless you correct it with wheel offsets which I assume isn't ideal.

I haven't decided on a camber plate yet. I am still trying to decide on lowering springs or HAS then I will check the camber and possibly think about a camber kit. I am driving tight mountain roads so a bit of extra camber on those sharp corners might be nice.

 

[[email protected]]

There are a lot of reasons to change track width, whether for aesthetics or fitment or just getting the performance benefits of being wider.The rear is more limited since you're balancing the camber vs width and the driveshaft extension.

The bottom line is most adjustable camber plates are tricky at best on the Caymans and that's why the LCAs have such a high adoption rate.

Camber is your friend, if you really use the car you will torch the outside of the tires without it.

Thanks, I was just trying to understand what these arms are for. Though I assume if you increase track on the rear you ideally want to increase by a similar amount on the front to maintain balance unless you correct it with wheel offsets which I assume isn't ideal.

I haven't decided on a camber plate yet. I am still trying to decide on lowering springs or HAS then I will check the camber and possibly think about a camber kit. I am driving tight mountain roads so a bit of extra camber on those sharp corners might be nice.

 

[vhs]

What are the pros and cons of camber plates vs LCAs? I have PASM (-10mm) if that makes a difference.

My car when from -.5/-.6 to only -1.2 (rear stayed at -1.5). It's better, but it needs more.

 

[sobiloff]

Resurrecting this thread because I had the same question as @vhs. @[email protected] explained it a bit; here's my understanding: The GT3 lower control arms are adjustable via shims, so I think that when you make them longer (insert shims) they push the bottom of the wheel out from the centerline further while the top stays in place, thus giving you more negative camber.

You can achieve a similar result with camber plates, which allow you to pull the top of the wheel in from the centerline while the bottom stays in place.

The Tarett Club Sport camber plates can give you up to 0.9° of additional negative camber (so roughly -2.4° max), while the largest GT3 LCA shim gives you -1.6° (roughly -3.1° max).

Tarrett Club Sport camber plates are about half the cost of the GT3 LCAs, and it would seem that they're sufficient for most vehicles outside of dedicated track machines. Also, the camber plates can help you fit slightly larger wheels/tires without having to roll the front fenders; I don't think the LCAs help as much in that regard.