Porsche 718 Forum banner
41 - 60 of 70 Posts

·
Premium Member
2019 base Cayman
Joined
·
2,053 Posts
Not to change the subject, but since it was mentioned in one of the above comments, does the 2.0 not have the Variocam system?
It does. From 718 tech workshop presentation:
Automotive tire Camera accessory Motor vehicle Font Camera lens
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
686 Posts
Not to change the subject, but since it was mentioned in one of the above comments, does the 2.0 not have the Variocam system?
In this case the VVT I refer to in my post above is Variable Vane Turbo. Also referred to as VGT (Variable Geomerty Turbo) or VNT (Variable Nozzle Turbo). It is a pretty advanced turbo technology, and you can look up the details, but it effectively changes the equivalent size of the rear turbine housing. So it can make a turbo behave more like a small turbo at low RPM and more like a large turbo at high RPM. It can also be used for boost control removing the need for a wastegate... but in the case of the 718 2.5L it has both a wastegate and a VVT. I don't know which is used for what in terms of boost control.

So the 2.0L has the same variable cam timing technology as the 2.5L, but the 2.5L has a more advanced turbo. The 2.0L has a traditional wastegate only turbo (though it has an electronic actuator). So the 2.5L really should be much better at low RPM than the 2.0L. I've never driven the 2.0L myself to compare, but I have seen several posts where someone test drove both and commented on the difference in low end torque which swung the purchase decision towards the 2.5L.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,638 Posts
It's been 16 months since we sold our '17 BS and we've only had our '22 BGTS for 1.5 months. Regardless, my feeling is both engines exhibit sluggish behavior at low rpms. The 2.5T never felt bogged or sluggish when in Sport+, because the revs were always elevated (enhancing boost), and rarely so in Sport for the same reason. The BGTS engine wasn't run-in before I came down with Covid, so our trip was cut short. My mind wasn't sharp enough to push it on the way home (wasn't supposed to be until next week), so I shouldn't pass judgement until I get to hammer away, but my first impression was the 4.0 was slower to react than the 2.5 turbo...again, I wasn't (still not, and according to many, never was) of sound mind, so don't quote me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JazzCatGab

·
Registered
Joined
·
218 Posts
Not sure if you have Sport Chrono in the T. Agree with Mr. Magnet re Sport+ behavior. Low end revs/launch can be sub-optimal, but on balance, not a big deal. In the 2.0l base engine, Sport+ mode keeps the turbo spun up, so very little if any lag.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
68 Posts
Interesting discussion. Though I drive a CS there is for sure some turbo lag but depending or your PDK program this should not affect life too much. Since you have a manual you can work with that better. The only time turbo lag started annoying me was on a wet track when the tires lose grip when the torque really kicks in from 1st to 3rd gear. Otherwise I don't think it is an issue at all. On a wet track you have to manually shift early to avoid loss or traction when the turbo kicks in..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
686 Posts
I have (tuned) BS with PDK and SC. I never drive in the Normal mode, because the lag/threshold just annoys me as well as the lower throttle response. I almost always drive in S mode. I find that the lag/threshold is mostly not an issue in auto shifting mode, and I can easily drive around it with a manual downshift when I am expecting it (or tap the sports response button!). I spend a small amount of time in S+ mode. In S+ mode Lag/Threshold is not an issue at all, but it just revs too much in normal driving to be a relaxing drive if that is what I am after.

I do find my normal PDK usage is auto mode but regular use of paddles to override it. Normally when I go into a corner I will do an extra down change more than it would do by itself (sometime just for crackles and pops!!), and leave myself in a lower gear coming out of the corner and then manual upchange to normal speed, and let the auto take over itself again. I only go full manual shifting on a nice windy road.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
306 Posts
my first impression was the 4.0 was slower to react than the 2.5 turbo...again, I wasn't (still not, and according to many, never was) of sound mind, so don't quote me.
I believe you are also mixing the gas pedal reaction (lag) to the torque/power band pull

The 4.0 (and NA in general) has better (throttle) response than forced engines
Yes the 4.0 is slower (less torque) at lower engine speed but it's a different story than the lag itself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #50 ·
The Cayman is a different car and I actually enjoy managing the boost threshold. Combined with the manual gearbox, it feels very symbiotic and I feel like part of the machine because it takes my shifting and boost management skill to make the machine go fast. That is why I want a manual in the first place. So yes, the automatic does a better job at managing it for you but it takes away some of the engagement for me. I have also found that since I control the clutch release, I can keep the revs up and release at a rate that keeps everything happy. The car is so good that I don't miss the instant torque that much because I enjoy having torque come up gradually, the ability to mash the throttle and build up to 7000 rpm a whole lot more.
Thanks for the excellent feedback. I'm excited for a manual T, After test driving an automatic 2.0 it feels sluggish self shifting, but when I dropped it in manual mode and kept the car in 1st car at a red light it really gets up and goes. I think the complaint is the transmission behavior, not the engine itself.

So when driving a 2.0 in manual, I imagine you're able to control boost threshold and you take off at a higher RPM, eliminating the dead feeling below 2k RPM? I usually put some throttle as I lift off the clutch which puts me at a higher RPM in any manual I'm driving.
 

·
Registered
Cayman GTS 4.0
Joined
·
256 Posts
Thanks for the excellent feedback. I'm excited for a manual T, After test driving an automatic 2.0 it feels sluggish self shifting, but when I dropped it in manual mode and kept the car in 1st car at a red light it really gets up and goes. I think the complaint is the transmission behavior, not the engine itself.

So when driving a 2.0 in manual, I imagine you're able to control boost threshold and you take off at a higher RPM, eliminating the dead feeling below 2k RPM? I usually put some throttle as I lift off the clutch which puts me at a higher RPM in any manual I'm driving.
The behaviour of PDK depends on the driving mode. It's far from sluggish in Sport or especially Sport+. The T has Sport chrono as standard.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Discussion Starter · #52 ·
The behaviour of PDK depends on the driving mode. It's far from sluggish in Sport or especially Sport+. The T has Sport chrono as standard.
this was a base cayman. With sport it still felt slow off the line, but putting the pdk in manual and holding it in 1st gear mitigated the slow feeling significantly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
530 Posts
Thanks for the excellent feedback. I'm excited for a manual T, After test driving an automatic 2.0 it feels sluggish self shifting, but when I dropped it in manual mode and kept the car in 1st car at a red light it really gets up and goes. I think the complaint is the transmission behavior, not the engine itself.

So when driving a 2.0 in manual, I imagine you're able to control boost threshold and you take off at a higher RPM, eliminating the dead feeling below 2k RPM? I usually put some throttle as I lift off the clutch which puts me at a higher RPM in any manual I'm driving.
Yes, I have it down now, just keep the throttle up and release clutch appropriately and it's great. If you just dump the clutch and don't "drive" the car, yes it can bog down. All I am saying is yes the 2.5 is better in this respect but the T is such an amazing package, that I would rather have this quirk than a base S and even if you dump a lot of money on the the S, you still can't get a T because there are options that you cannot get in the S.

I think people are focusing a little too much on this one aspect of the car and when you look at something in isolation, it can look worse than it really is.

Here is the Cayman T low end torque zoomed in and in isolation:
Brown Amber Wood Tints and shades Peach



Here is the Cayman T when you look at the whole picture:
Forehead Nose Cheek Lip Shoulder


You pick how you want to look at it. : )
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
686 Posts
I get what the T is about. It seems like a cut price GTS (most of the driver engaging options from the GTS). It is just such a shame it was not available with the 2.5L. I guess it would have cannibalised GTS sales. I personally prefer the GTS, as I don;t subscribe to the view that saving a few kgs is going to be more beneficial than the extra hp/Nm. But I get that some people like that.

Personally, I like good low end torque and I like high peak power and was not willing to sacrifice these things so got an S with some options (second hand so I could not choose the options and could not afford a GTS). If there is one thing I wish my car had, it is the PTV. It is not hard to find the limits of the standard differential on a windy road. I don't find many used cars with this option unless they had it standard like GTS and T.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
122 Posts
The take off is slow, if you give more rev tires will spin. It is very difficult to launch and have a good acceleration. You can feel it sluggish during 1 seconde and. Litlle more. Due to turbo lag or lack of torque. It is the only moment this car is disappointing
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,416 Posts
Mashing the throttle in a 2.0 PDK is as effective as mashing the throttle and dropping the clutch in a manual—not very as you are likely to get a bog.

To take off quickly in a manual you feed it throttle in a steady push and ease the clutch. To take off quickly in a PDK you feed it throttle in a steady push—no need to ease the clutch, it's automatic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
530 Posts
I get what the T is about. It seems like a cut price GTS (most of the driver engaging options from the GTS). It is just such a shame it was not available with the 2.5L. I guess it would have cannibalised GTS sales. I personally prefer the GTS, as I don;t subscribe to the view that saving a few kgs is going to be more beneficial than the extra hp/Nm. But I get that some people like that.

Personally, I like good low end torque and I like high peak power and was not willing to sacrifice these things so got an S with some options (second hand so I could not choose the options and could not afford a GTS). If there is one thing I wish my car had, it is the PTV. It is not hard to find the limits of the standard differential on a windy road. I don't find many used cars with this option unless they had it standard like GTS and T.
Exactly sir!! We all prioritize some things higher than others. That is exactly what I was saying about T vs a Base S which is the most common thing said by reviewers. For a few dollars more than the T, you can get a base S with more power. But the T comes with the things important to old school car guys like me. It comes with an LSD standard. It comes with the GT4 short shifter standard which is not available on S or GTS. It comes with leather/sports tex seats which I prefer on a sports car to leather. Alcantara is amazing but maintenance is higher if you really use the car a lot. The cloths seats are incredibly grippy and cooler than leather. Again, a big thing for sports car function. You get the GTS suspension and sports plus seats, but what really sets it apart is that it looks amazing. The titanium grey wheels are the perfect color and even the shape of the stripe looks great. When I considered a GTS, the name designation on the was the first thing I would remove and I considered removing it on the T but with the titanium grey mirror cap, the lower grey stripe balanced it aesthitically. I also agree that it's a shame they didn't offer the 2.5 in the T, because I would've probably checked it myself, but when forced to decided between the T and a little more power, the T is special in that it gives you things that really scratch an itch that S cannot scratch like the cloth seats which are huge on my priority scale and the short shifter from the factory with a warranty and the LSD etc. I thought I wasn't going to be able to feel the LSD do anything with so little torque, but as I said now that the car is broken in and I have learned to drive it, I can feel it working and it makes my little heart go pitter pat. It's not an easy choice and everyone here is happy with their choice because they prioritized what is important to them. What makes the T special is that it is the last Porsche I know of with proper cloth sports seats unless you order some of the special order tartan jobs on a Spyder and it is the lightest variant with an LSD and amazing suspension and a very good manual gearbox with short shifter. So you can see, it is special in that respect. Most people think cloth is just cheap because leather is sold as a more premium material. I like leather as much as the next guy, it smells nice and my T has leather on side and headrests, but where my body sits, is extremely focused all black grippy cool cloth which is an optimal material for performance driving. Leather is awesome, it is like the Rolex Explorer, who wouldn't like it is rugged and good looking and timeless but if you were really going into battle the Casio G-Shock is superior even though less expensive, it is more rugged and better suited for combat.

Sorry for all the rambling, this car still excites me a lot, which a year ago, cars were dead to me. all electronics dashes, leather everything, automatics, fluff to the left, fluff to the right, then BOOM, giant mushroom cloud of love from a T-Bomb. Happy Tuesday everyone!!
 

·
Registered
2018, GTS, PDK
Joined
·
954 Posts
All interesting here. I do experience the lag in my gts, but does it bother me, actually no.
once used to it, how it behaves, what you then need to then do, really no problem.
still would not change tbh.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
530 Posts
All interesting here. I do experience the lag in my gts, but does it bother me, actually no.
once used to it, how it behaves, what you then need to then do, really no problem.
still would not change tbh.
I had an interesting thing happen today at cars and coffee. I met a gentleman there that had a beautiful white 2021 Sypder about a year ago and we chatted when I told him I was waiting for my Cayman T to come in. He didn't know what a Cayman T was and I told him all about it. About 6 months ago he sold his Spyder and made some money off it and I hadn't seen him in a few months. Today, I ran into him at Cars and Coffee and he told me that he was looking for me because he is now considering a Boxster T and found one out of state. We chatted and he wanted to sit in mine and take a ride. So we did and I let him drive mine. I felt uneasy because he was coming from the Spyder and I told him not to expect much. Anyway, after the drive, he was really happy, especially how it handled and he said, its fast enough..I'm 70. He mentioned that he never opened up his Spyder and it just stopped making sense and now he is considering a Boxster T. I think that is the cool thing about the T...it is powerful enough to be fun and cool with accessible power that you can use on the street. Anyway, we will see how it goes but it would be interesting to see someone going from a Spyder to a T. He didn't think the low end grunt was an issue as well for what he wants in the car which is mainly amazing handling, looks and good manual gearbox.
 
41 - 60 of 70 Posts
Top