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Totally agree with both statements of @xhyphenx, and will add more:
  • the freedom to choose maps is the key for many of us who choose COBB and other handheld or Mobile-based options (like JB4). Enthusiast just needs control and freedom by their nature. The best-but-once-for-a-while approach even with the coolest tune is the great but cost/effort of changes may become annoying (depending on locations, frequency etc). I hope APR will resolve it somehow soon because they did so great job in everything else.
  • Intellectual property is so easy to steal. I was impressed by how fast the front-door flashing was spread across the tuners and how the release of one great tune cause some chain of releases from others. That says even if the vendor composed the best tune ever it is not the only thing bringing for success. Marketing, flexibility, matching expectations, client communications, and feeling a personal approach - it is the additional value coming with your tune and it really matters.
 

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You realise this industry is all about reverse engineering. The first person to tune a Porsche 718 had to reverse engineer the Porsche ECU. It comes as no surprise that if someone works something out that competitors will try to reverse engineer that. Its not like you can protect your intellectual property as a tuner when you copied what Porsche started with to make your original tune.
 

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They do sell the COBB tuner with out of the box COBB tunes.
@[email protected] - Yeah it's a Dimsport device. I really wish the car tuners would catch up with the diesel tuners. The EzLynk that I had in my trucks were the BOMB! Connect your tuner to the car, download the app to your phone, connect your profile to your custom tuner, download their tune(s) from the net that are associated with your VIN / profile, install tune... BAM! Off and running. These handhelds are old tech.... That includes the COBB tuners as well.
Thanks for the reply and confirmation.
 

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I see the tuner improving the base tune for more power. Porsche is not losing any money as a result. But I do see a lesser-tuner stealing code from a superior tuner as intellectuual property theft.
I think Porsche would prefer to sell the S rather than have a customer buy a base + tune. 🙂

Intellectual property is a difficult area, and one in which I have little experience. From what I do understand "reverse engineering" is not theft per se, but can lead to it if the way of getting results is too close to the original. Stealing code would of course be "too close". Proving that, and having a legal system that supports a complaint/law suit is a requirement.

In my field (psychotherapy) there are a number of practices and theories that go back to a seminal work that's about a hundred years old that is almost never even acknowledged in the current books, etc. There are those that claim the insights are theirs alone, despite even using the original terminology.🙁
 

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Possible some would view a Base-plus-tune as a substitute for an S model. What about those who see the S and GTS plus a tune as a whoop-a$$ response to the C8 Corvette or any other competing car? A serious, earnest tuner is not stealing from Porsche- they are offering an enhancement choice.

As far as theory goes, few would argue for copyright or patents on ideas.
 

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People don't really care or blame someone who "steal" some IP... but it works only if you returned it back improved and producing more value for society.... even if you want your cut. The added value is the core. Be the Prometheus :)
 

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If Porsche wanted customers to modify the ECU tunes they would not put encryption and other methods that take the hackers much time to break before they can do the tuning (and I believe when they do break it, it is often through internal leaks). Then the tuners take a copy of the complied code that is in the ECU (including all operating algorithms and tuning maps/lookup tables) and store this intellectual property on their computers without permission (which I am pretty sure if they could be caught would be an intellectual property copyright violation). They then reverse engineer these files and make changes to the algorithms/maps that are based on the original and in doing so come to an understanding of the intellectual property of the engineers who designed it. They then write their modified file over the original and in doing so create a warranty problem for Porsche as they have to now screen any warranty claims and dissappoint their valuable customer base by refusing warranty on modified vehicles.

Luckily for most manufacturers, it's such a small percentage of their market (and in Porsche's market it is smaller than many others) that it is just not worth their effort in doing anything about it. But you are kidding yourself if you think Porsche want this to happen. It creates more problems than benefits for them. If they wanted it they would introduce an aftermarket factory supported tuning division themselves. But that would just upset their marketting plans which are that you spend more money on the car to get a version that meets your tuned requirements.

Now I've worked in this tuning industry. I've been the first to market with a tuning product and made lots of money while the competitors played catchup. When they did eventually work out how to copy us and go into competition with us, our profit margin was significantly reduced. It was frustrating to do the hard work, and give someone else an easy ride to do the same thing by copying us, but we knew it would happen and we knew we could not do anything about it. It's not like we could claim breach of copyright when we were just modifiying someone else's IP. You make the most of the time you have without competition.

Don't get me wrong.... I plan to tune my car. This is the way the industry works and my aim is just to get my car the way I want it. I'll just take the tune that suits me best and not get too bothered by who made what first. They all copy each other and they all copy the original IP from the manufacturer. Is there honour amongst thieves?
 

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If Porsche wanted customers to modify the ECU tunes they would not put encryption and other methods that take the hackers much time to break before they can do the tuning (and I believe when they do break it, it is often through internal leaks). Then the tuners take a copy of the complied code that is in the ECU (including all operating algorithms and tuning maps/lookup tables) and store this intellectual property on their computers without permission (which I am pretty sure if they could be caught would be an intellectual property copyright violation). They then reverse engineer these files and make changes to the algorithms/maps that are based on the original and in doing so come to an understanding of the intellectual property of the engineers who designed it. They then write their modified file over the original and in doing so create a warranty problem for Porsche as they have to now screen any warranty claims and dissappoint their valuable customer base by refusing warranty on modified vehicles.

Luckily for most manufacturers, it's such a small percentage of their market (and in Porsche's market it is smaller than many others) that it is just not worth their effort in doing anything about it. But you are kidding yourself if you think Porsche want this to happen. It creates more problems than benefits for them. If they wanted it they would introduce an aftermarket factory supported tuning division themselves. But that would just upset their marketting plans which are that you spend more money on the car to get a version that meets your tuned requirements.

Now I've worked in this tuning industry. I've been the first to market with a tuning product and made lots of money while the competitors played catchup. When they did eventually work out how to copy us and go into competition with us, our profit margin was significantly reduced. It was frustrating to do the hard work, and give someone else an easy ride to do the same thing by copying us, but we knew it would happen and we knew we could not do anything about it. It's not like we could claim breach of copyright when we were just modifiying someone else's IP. You make the most of the time you have without competition.

Don't get me wrong.... I plan to tune my car. This is the way the industry works and my aim is just to get my car the way I want it. I'll just take the tune that suits me best and not get too bothered by who made what first. They all copy each other and they all copy the original IP from the manufacturer. Is there honour amongst thieves?
I would agree with most of the things you say. From the point of view of the product or service provider, it has total sense. But the success of a business is measured by customers ultimately. If your business can be broken by others just having the same product as you (stolen, replicated) and customers are just fine - time to change. An MBA in my country is teaching very well how to deal with it.
Just look again to APR: they don't sell just tune. Like Apple doesn't sell just the Phone or Laptop. Apple sells a lifestyle, sophisticated design, status, differentiation, and a few more things on top. APR from my observations sells great tune as the core, feeling of deeply polished product and of course ultimate safety (you can do whatever you want and the system will protect you), personal approach and communications with doubting clients (believe me - it is amazing for such as me, I hate ones who didn't answer my questions properly), etc.
And what is most important - it is almost impossible to copy that extra value in a reasonable time.:):)

Back to the Porsche... they want or don't want the tune?.. they are just OK when you take your own risk (stop warranty) and until it doesn't break the feeling their cares are technically most reliable and capable to hold the sport or even race-like loads. And it seems to work well. This is just another product ecosystem and they're on top of it. It is natural to have smaller businesses around resolving related needs like ECU tuning, breaks, detailing, other moding etc.

I don't care about underneath of tune providers too much (more from educational interest) until they give what I need. And I personally need quickly switchable tunes and capability to build custom things. That's it :)
 

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Did anyone catch our live event yesterday?
Watched the recording, good stuff Arin! Interested in hearing more (literally!) on the 718 exhaust especially the valved straight pipe option. How much drone with valve off and on? Maybe a driving video comparison before install and then comparison between the two modes? Not sure how much you would pick-up on audio. Oh, and interested in hearing that on a stage 1 tuned car.
 

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Sorry about pricing differences. I have no control over that. Tarrifs, taxes, duties, vat, conversion rates, etc all play into it I'm sure.

The Porsche 2.0T, 2.5T, 3.0T, and 3.8T all made no measurable difference using a testpipe vs the stock cat. So we offer just one file. You're free to mod how you see fit, but mostly you'll just gain more sound and hopefully less weight.
Hi Arin,

I just got around to watching the video you guys made recently. It was great to see the things you are doing! You spend a bit of time talking about the catalytic converters/downpipes on the 991.2 and 992, but not much about the 718. You mention in your quote above that there is no measurable difference in test pipe vs stock cat for all recent Porsche engines. I was just wondering if you could expand on that? Did you do dyno runs of each, or measure the pressure drop across the cat and find it to be very low so no point in running a test pipe? The exhaust you are offering for the 718 looks really nice. But in APRs experience, are exhaust mods (downpipe or catback) just about sound and there is no performance benefit? Some people who have upgraded claim the engine to be more responsive. I wonder if that is just the factory boost control struggling to control spool more so allowing some boost spikes. Perhaps if the boost is accurately controlled, the differences would not be present?

Thanks
 

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Regarding the OEM Cat in the 718. While my car (718 BS) was at APR, I was in contact with them regarding an aftermarket high flow cat. I told them if they needed a high flow cat for the tune, I would have one shipped to their facility. I was told by APR that the factory cat actually had good flow and there was no need for an aftermarket Cat for their Stage 1 tune. Based on Porsche literature for our cars, the S has a larger Cat than the base 718.
27243
 

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Regarding the OEM Cat in the 718. While my car (718 BS) was at APR, I was in contact with them regarding an aftermarket high flow cat. I told them if they needed a high flow cat for the tune, I would have one shipped to their facility. I was told by APR that the factory cat actually had good flow and there was no need for an aftermarket Cat for their Stage 1 tune. Based on Porsche literature for our cars, the S has a larger Cat than the base 718. View attachment 27243
It’s been proven that catless or 200 CEL cat makes power. Pretty rudimentary stuff. I think there’s a guy on here who posted 15 hp gain going to sport cat while on APR tune.
I for sure felt the gain even on my stock tune. Mid to high range power increase is definitely there, especially after my ecu calibrated to the new mod by driving for about 50 miles or so.
 

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My experience with high flow cats is that it improves throttle response but without the relevant tune (stage 2) it is not much difference and a 3-5% gain in hp is not really going to be noticeable.

I'd assume that Porsche did not build the cars with a low flow cat so maybe APR is correct when they say there is not much point changing the cat for their Stage 1 tune which is most likely reasonably conservative.

I would be interested to hear what people could get with a dedicated Stage 2 tune and say 100 or 200 cell "race" cat. I know in the early days Ehresmann and Mcchip-dkr achieved ~450hp stage 2 for the S with a 200 cell cat which is an extra 30hp or 7% over APRs Stage 1 420hp. So maybe a dedicated Stage 2 tune for the GTS could achieve ~ 470hp or more with more recent tuning insights, and further gains for the S.
 
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