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I did not know anything about this issue of NA6 vs T4 when I purchased my 1st Porsche, 2019 BGTS. I went to the dealer to get a new 2019 911 GTS 4S Cabriolet but left with the BGTS. I preferred 718 over 911 for its compact dimension, nimbleness and handling. Weird as it may be, I also liked its sound! I just don’t understand some people fussing over T4. I plan to get a new 911 in a few years so I can have extra space for my dog. For now, my passenger space is occasionally shared by my wife and our dog. Of course, I am planning to keep my 1st Porsche.
 

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I preferred 718 over 911 for its compact dimension, nimbleness and handling.
+1 I love the 911, but like many here I also feel it has grown into more of a Grand Tourer than a light, tossable, wring it out sports car (911 GT Series excluded). Not dissing the 911 at all, but you have to admit the 718 is more in keeping with the 550 and 718 of yore.
 

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+1 I love the 911, but like many here I also feel it has grown into more of a Grand Tourer than a light, tossable, wring it out sports car (911 GT Series excluded). Not dissing the 911 at all, but you have to admit the 718 is more in keeping with the 550 and 718 of yore.
The 911 feels like a Grand Tourer if you drive it like one...it comes alive when you drive it a little harder...the 718 feels like a sports car all the time...I love them both
 

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The past president of the KYPCA drove a beautiful black 718 and on our monthly drives, there are quite a few Boxsters and Caymans of various vintage. So, no issues here. And its Kentucky, so lots of people wave at sports cars, motorcycles, other pickup trucks, etc. More inter-Porsche waves between sportier models, however. Maybe that's because we are just enjoying the drive more. Don't know.
 

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(I've got several points to make, so bear with me.)

I still frequent the non-BMW and audio-specific sections of the forum for my previous car, a BMW 2 Series. (forum: 2Addicts, an extension of Bimmerpost. I use the same screen name/avatar there as I do here). It's got the usual share of hyper-opinionated, hyper-biased regulars -- in fact, part of the reason I still frequent it is precisely so I can refute (and, sometimes, correct) the ignorance among those regulars about the 718, audio, the automotive world, and more.
There, the 718 is looked down upon by some because of the flat-6 issue. I usually use one of three retorts for those folks:
1). To the sound-is-everything peep: Would you date someone just because he or she had a great voice? Or do 'other things' matter? (Yeah, I thought maybe those 'other things' mattered more ... ) I'd rather be faster then you than better sounding than you, anyway ...
2). To the 911-is-the-only-Porsche-that-matters peep: Funny thing: the 356 never had a flat-6. And Porsche's fastest-ever car to date, the 919? It's a 4-pot. Oh, and my little 718 basically outruns 99 percent of NA 911s ever made. Finally ... um ... oversteer much?
3). To the 718-is-a-compromise peep: Two Porsches exist that are ground-up in-house designs: the 911 and the 718. With only one exception (the 928), this has always been the case in its mass-produced sports cars. The 356, 912, 914, 924, and 944 all had outside developers involved. The only thing that distinguishes the 718 is that its Boxster/Cayman predecessors used to be made outside of Germany. Guess what? Not anymore! In fact, my 718 was built in the same factory that most 911s are made in: Zuffenhausen. Smoke that, ya weenie!

Ignorance -- whether purposeful or not -- is the source of almost all of da hatahs. Then there's the ex-Moderator here who's been mentioned earlier in this thread, who couldn't deal with that ignorance after he upleveled, so he skedaddled to mingle with the rarefieds -- even though (to the best of my knowledge) his wife still had a 718. (He never indicated otherwise.) He didn't even have the decency to address the community he managed about it. Good riddance to those kind of folks. Entitlement doesn't excuse a lack of accountability, much less general understanding ...

... anyway: I have personally made it part of my archetype to never own the top-of-the-line model of any car. Did I ever lust after the top-of-the-line? Honestly, not really -- I simply chose to make the less-than-penultimate my ultimate. I say this because owning anything is, first and foremost, a personal choice. Few things are bought to make others happy -- and in the realms where that is done regularly, I've found that folks almost always have alternates outside of that realm to fulfill themselves more personally. Homey don't play dat game (much). The base 718, modified to make it my own, makes me exceedingly happy as a car enthusiast. Would a flat-6 911 do the same? Maybe, but likely not on the same level. So I don't own one, am not yet considering one, and if I ever own one it won't be a GT variant. 'Cause my happiness is all that matters. That should be all that matters to any of us.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
(I've got several points to make, so bear with me.)

I still frequent the non-BMW and audio-specific sections of the forum for my previous car, a BMW 2 Series. (forum: 2Addicts, an extension of Bimmerpost. I use the same screen name/avatar there as I do here). It's got the usual share of hyper-opinionated, hyper-biased regulars -- in fact, part of the reason I still frequent it is precisely so I can refute (and, sometimes, correct) the ignorance among those regulars about the 718, audio, the automotive world, and more.
There, the 718 is looked down upon by some because of the flat-6 issue. I usually use one of three retorts for those folks:
1). To the sound-is-everything peep: Would you date someone just because he or she had a great voice? Or do 'other things' matter? (Yeah, I thought maybe those 'other things' mattered more ... ) I'd rather be faster then you than better sounding than you, anyway ...
2). To the 911-is-the-only-Porsche-that-matters peep: Funny thing: the 356 never had a flat-6. And Porsche's fastest-ever car to date, the 919? It's a 4-pot. Oh, and my little 718 basically outruns 99 percent of NA 911s ever made. Finally ... um ... oversteer much?
3). To the 718-is-a-compromise peep: Two Porsches exist that are ground-up in-house designs: the 911 and the 718. With only one exception (the 928), this has always been the case in its mass-produced sports cars. The 912, 914, 924, and 944 all had outside developers involved. The only thing that distinguishes the 718 is that its Boxster/Cayman predecessors used to be made outside of Germany. Guess what? Not anymore! In fact, my 718 was built in the same factory that most 911s are made in: Zuffenhausen. Smoke that, ya weenie!

Ignorance -- whether purposeful or not -- is the source of almost all of da hatahs. Then there's the ex-Moderator here who's been mentioned earlier in this thread, who couldn't deal with that ignorance after he upleveled, so he skedaddled to mingle with the rarefieds -- even though (to the best of my knowledge) his wife still had a 718. (He never indicated otherwise.) He didn't even have the decency to address the community he managed about it. Good riddance to those kind of folks. Entitlement doesn't excuse a lack of accountability, much less general understanding ...

... anyway: I have personally made it part of my archetype to never own the top-of-the-line model of any car. Did I ever lust after the top-of-the-line? Honestly, not really -- I simply chose to make the less-than-penultimate my ultimate. I say this because owning anything is, first and foremost, a personal choice. Few things are bought to make others happy -- and in the realms where that is done regularly, I've found that folks almost always have alternates outside of that realm to fulfill themselves more personally. Homey don't play dat game (much). The base 718, modified to make it my own, makes me exceedingly happy as a car enthusiast. Would a flat-6 911 do the same? Maybe, but likely not on the same level. So I don't own one, am not yet considering one, and if I ever own one it won't be a GT variant. 'Cause my happiness is all that matters. That should be all that matters to any of us.
Great response and well said...

PS I also still frequent Bimmerpost as my last several cars were M models :)
 

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(I've got several points to make, so bear with me.)

Then there's the ex-Moderator here who's been mentioned earlier in this thread, who couldn't deal with that ignorance after he upleveled, so he skedaddled to mingle with the rarefieds -- even though (to the best of my knowledge) his wife still had a 718. (He never indicated otherwise.) He didn't even have the decency to address the community he managed about it. Good riddance to those kind of folks. Entitlement doesn't excuse a lack of accountability, much less general understanding ...
Wow, that's harsh! You must know something we don't. I thought he just moved on...as many have done.
 

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Dude, the piddly ass 718 s/gts has smoked so many current and past 911's that cost a zillion. Think about it. It is 9 seconds faster than a 997 turbo on the nurberring. If you did not get a wave, that is just out of sheer jealousy.. :) A 911 is always bought for prestige, lineage, history, aura, iconic looks etc but the humble cayman always gets the best drivers car award in all reviews.
TRUTH!
 

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Viffer

I too frequent Beemerpost under the same username (///AVM), and spend ALL of my time in the M2 subform. I am still a huge fan of the M2C, and about to add one to my garage.

Do I feel the M2C is 'better' than my 718 CGTS? NO WAY! I LOVE MY GTS! I am a 'Porsche Guy.' The M2C is just a completely different driving experience, which I also find very appealing.

Both this and the Beemerpost forum members suffer a similar affliction . . . hung up on 'track' numbers that are completely meaningless to the vast majority of 718 and M2C owners.

AVM

P.S. Viffer, I really need to get rid of those red rear bumper markers. Please tell me if/when you come across and aftermarket option that is black, smoked or clear.
 

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The 911 feels like a Grand Tourer if you drive it like one...it comes alive when you drive it a little harder...the 718 feels like a sports car all the time...I love them both
I agree, and I never said it didn't come alive if you drive it harder 🍻
 

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The 912, 914, 924, and 944 all had outside developers involved.
Okay, now I'm curious, since my first Porsche was a '63 912. What was the outside designer input on the 912? It was essentially an original 911 body with the 356 4-banger dropped in and a 3-binnacle instrument panel instead of the 911's 5. I bought mine in '73 when it was already 10 y.o. As I knew it back then the 912 was motivated by public dislike of the 6-cyl's lower gas mileage and greater weight, so Porsche responded. Another story I heard was that it was a way to dump the remaining inventory of 4-cyl engines. But outside designer?
 

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Okay, now I'm curious, since my first Porsche was a '63 912. What was the outside designer input on the 912? It was essentially an original 911 body with the 356 4-banger dropped in and a 3-binnacle instrument panel instead of the 911's 5. I bought mine in '73 when it was already 10 y.o. As I knew it back then the 912 was motivated by public dislike of the 6-cyl's lower gas mileage and greater weight, so Porsche responded. Another story I heard was that it was a way to dump the remaining inventory of 4-cyl engines. But outside designer?
The main driver was European tax laws, encouraging smaller engines. The 912 had a 1.6 lt engine.

It was different in different countries but roughly, there was a step change somewhere in the 1500-1700 cc range (if you look at older European cars, they always had a 1200 cc, 1500 cc, or 1600 cc engine.

I grew up in Greece, and they had this mythical 'tax horses'. Each 'tax horse' corresponded to an annual tax of x drachmas.

1000 cc --> 6 horses
1200 cc --> 8 horses
1500 cc -->10 horses
1700 cc --> 12 horses
2000 cc --> 14 horses

Every 100cc after that it was additional 4 horses.

That's why only the very rich (and the police) drove Chevrolets...
 

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DriveinHouston has it right....my parents are from a Greek Island that many families who were in shipping and owned freighters were from...I remember a family who we have close ties to complaining that they were given a Jaguar as a gift from another ship owner...they were complaining about the tax they had to pay because of the large engine displacement...definitely a different world than the one we grew up in!
 

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Wow, that's harsh! You must know something we don't. I thought he just moved on...as many have done.
Not really. I just feel strongly that if you represent a community, you should personally explain to that community why you've decided to cease representing it and move on. He didn't do that; he just up and left.

The only tidbit communicated by anyone publicly about it was that he could no longer relate to 718 owners -- which was hogwash in my mind because of what his wife drove. Maybe she'd moved on from it, too -- but that was never communicated by either he or she (she was a member here, too), either.

His departure just smacked of something else. My initial post here alludes to what I suspect that 'something else' actually is. That's all.
 

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The main driver was European tax laws, encouraging smaller engines. The 912 had a 1.6 lt engine.
Okay, but that was just the way things were at that time. Some manufacturers' engines were designed toward racing classes, though admittedly you could argue the reverse, that racing classes were based on common engine sizes, which were themselves based on tax sizes. I don't know that I'd give any "design credit" to national tax systems. Porsche could have made it 1.5L or 1.75L or 1.8L or anything else they chose. They had reasons, internal or external, in this case external economic, to target the 1.6L class. That's certainly not an engineering decision.
 

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You asked what got Porsche to put the 4 banger in the 912 then. I got you the answer for then.

At that time, only Rolls Royce and Bentley would put anything bigger than 3 lt under the hood.

I am not sure I follow your logic dismissing the ‘tax design credit’
 

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Okay, now I'm curious, since my first Porsche was a '63 912. What was the outside designer input on the 912? It was essentially an original 911 body with the 356 4-banger dropped in and a 3-binnacle instrument panel instead of the 911's 5. I bought mine in '73 when it was already 10 y.o. As I knew it back then the 912 was motivated by public dislike of the 6-cyl's lower gas mileage and greater weight, so Porsche responded. Another story I heard was that it was a way to dump the remaining inventory of 4-cyl engines. But outside designer?
Just a guess, but could he be referring to the use of significant VW/Audi components?
 

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Just a guess, but could he be referring to the use of significant VW/Audi components?
As far as my feeble memory serves me, back in 65 or thereabouts, when the 912 was introduced, VW was only making the Beetle, the Karmann Ghia and the 411/Squareback (disregarding the VW bus/camper). What parts would the 912 share with them? The Audi was struggling to find a niche for itself, I don't think that it would be mature enough to share parts with anyone.

The story was definitely different with the 914/4, 914/6 a sadly overlooked Porsche, much maligned by ignorants, much like the 718 and the 'oh the NA6 wail' fanatics...
 
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