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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I dropped a question to Jens on the stage One tune for 718.
On of the questions was about the ECU.


you're right. We supply a second Porsche ecu incl. Stage 1 Tuning. The stock ecu is untouched so that you could swap the ecu's in case it's necessary.
The behavior is the same like now. You have in all modes more power than stock but the max power is on sport / sport+.

The price is 3499 € plus shipping.


I don't have much knowledge about tuning but it doesent sound right that 1 tune fits all cars?
But I guess I can always drive down to Germany.


Porsche 781 s - STAGE 1-405 HP / 480 NM & Stage 2-430 HP / 520 NM
We wish you a happy new year and start 2017 right with a real big bang.
Together with our development partner and leader in the porsche aftermarket tuning mto engineering we're finalized the long and intensive development phase for stage 1 & Stage 2 of the 718's models. now we are pleased to share the results of our work to the community and especially to the 718 enthusiasts
With this milestone we are the world's first tuner team which is in capable to custom tune the Porsche engine ecu on our maha msr 1050 dyno facility.
Due to the further increased complexity of the engine ecu's of the 718 / 991.2 models we recommend against additional tuning boxes.
Your engines and ultimately wallet will thank you.
Stage 1-BMC Filters, s1 mapping
405 HP (+ 55 HP)
480 NM (+ 60 NM)
Vmax = 300 km / h
Price: 2850 € incl. Assembly & Dyno test
Stage 2-BMC Filters, down pipe, s2 mapping
430 HP (+ 80 HP)
520 NM (+ 100 NM)
Vmax = over 300 km / h
;-)

Price: like stage 1 PLUS. Down Pipe (price coming soon) € incl.
Assembly & dyno test

The numbers does not feel right, 405 at the crank = 350 at the wheel, aint that a bit low?
The word around is that stock is closer to 340 at the wheels?


And at the same time I found this.
Porsche have very tight tolerances on engine release - stated HP and up to a maximum of 5% more. Anything else is rejected and sent for review.
(http://www.planet-9.com/718-chat/164361-718-dyno-thread.html)
Makes sence in a way.
 

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These newer VAG / Porsche computers are really good that tuners can make a one size fits all tune without having each specific car at a tune shop to dyno, etc. So it could be worth checking into, especially since they give you a new ecu
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
These newer VAG / Porsche computers are really good that tuners can make a one size fits all tune without having each specific car at a tune shop to dyno, etc. So it could be worth checking into, especially since they give you a new ecu

Thanks!
Anyone who knows where the ECU is mounted on our cars?
 

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And at the same time I found this.
Porsche have very tight tolerances on engine release - stated HP and up to a maximum of 5% more. Anything else is rejected and sent for review.
(718 dyno thread)
Makes sence in a way.
It sounds sensible enough, but then there is this PorscheBoost - The change from the 991.1 generation Carrera naturally aspirated flat-6 to the 991.2 gen turbo flat-6 is the largest power gain for a Carrera in Porsche history

One reads the explanation and data from Cobb in post #21 of that (painful!) Planet9 thread, which is consistent with stock baseline dyno results from other independent tuners. And consistent with actual acceleration times in the Fastestlaps database, where power can be calculated with fair accuracy for similar (PDK) Porsche cars of known weight. Then one might reasonably conclude that while Porsche likely does indeed have very tight tolerances on actual horsepower relative to their internal specs, the public-consumption factory ratings for the 9A2B6/B4 turbo engines are hugely understated.

I keep testing this hypothesis against new data surfacing in dyno charts and acceleration times and so far it holds up, despite the counter-arguments seen in the Planet9 thread.
 

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@johan and others following 718 tuning results:

Any theory on how Ehresmann does it? They seem to have a very strong reputation for Porsche racing support in Germany although they are not as well known here in U.S. Their peak horsepower and torque numbers are so much higher than any other after-market tuner results I've seen. Yet Erhresmann's Stage 2 is using stock VTG, IC, and radiators, according to their stated product spec of just air filter, downpipe, and re-programmed ECU.

Okay, downpipe can gain a lot of hp by reducing back-pressure, but is that sufficient to explain +100 HP compared to (for example) +17 by Cobb with tune alone? It almost seems as if Ehresmann knows something about this engine everybody else does not.

Disclaimer: I'm not in the market for a tune myself, but I follow this stuff with fascination for what it tells us about the engineering of our cars as delivered stock by Porsche.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
@johan and others following 718 tuning results:

Any theory on how Ehresmann does it? They seem to have a very strong reputation for Porsche racing support in Germany although they are not as well known here in U.S. Their peak horsepower and torque numbers are so much higher than any other after-market tuner results I've seen. Yet Erhresmann's Stage 2 is using stock VTG, IC, and radiators, according to their stated product spec of just air filter, downpipe, and re-programmed ECU.

Okay, downpipe can gain a lot of hp by reducing back-pressure, but is that sufficient to explain +100 HP compared to (for example) +17 by Cobb with tune alone? It almost seems as if Ehresmann knows something about this engine everybody else does not.

Disclaimer: I'm not in the market for a tune myself, but I follow this stuff with fascination for what it tells us about the engineering of our cars as delivered stock by Porsche.

I don't have a qlue, but we shall not forget that good optimization does a lot, Ehresman 981 stage 1 = 360 PS and 400 NM
https://www.facebook.com/9x1.org/po...ter-motoren-english-article-/511341752400375/
I also thinks that Ehresman have good knowledge on how the VTG works and can get some extra HP that way.
 

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@johan still in doubt about the tune? ;)
I'm following Ehresmann FB page and a few things can explain the higher figures:
fuell quality: 100 RON is used, also the base measurement is 370/380, Jens explains that the fuell can bring up to 30hp difference.
Maybe using the original ECU allows more than just an obd remap (not sure about that)
One of the best tuners here in Belgium (https://www.heinz-performance.com/en/tuning-en/ only offers stage one, witch brings it to 400, he is also specialized in Porsche and tunes some of the Porsche's in the BELCAR series. Since he's not far away from where I live I will go inform about stage 2 and what he has to offer, keep you posted.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
@johan still in doubt about the tune? ;)
I'm following Ehresmann FB page and a few things can explain the higher figures:
fuell quality: 100 RON is used, also the base measurement is 370/380, Jens explains that the fuell can bring up to 30hp difference.
Maybe using the original ECU allows more than just an obd remap (not sure about that)
One of the best tuners here in Belgium (https://www.heinz-performance.com/en/tuning-en/ only offers stage one, witch brings it to 400, he is also specialized in Porsche and tunes some of the Porsche's in the BELCAR series. Since he's not far away from where I live I will go inform about stage 2 and what he has to offer, keep you posted.

Jens is one of the few tuners I trust 0:)
 

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@johan and @CupraLeon --

Some more VTG background for your discussions with Jens. I'm really looking forward to hear what you learn.

https://www.ebsracing.com/files/2017 718 boxster intro lr.pdf

There is a beautiful color exploded diagram of the VTG turbo on page 40 of this internal Porsche Service Tech publication for the 718 Boxster 2.0 and 2.5 S. One thing I've gleaned from this, and a list of actuators in the DME chapter, is that contrary to my previous understanding, there is no VTG Vane Actuator (as I thought of it; they call vanes 'Guide Blades'). There is only the Wastegate Actuator for the Intergral Wastegate, same as the non-VTG 2.0.


Yet some mechanical force must be rotating the ring which alters the guide blades setting – I can only guess that the Wastegate Actuator linkage is connected to the ring somehow. That would imply the guide blade position (and with it, the Aspect Ratio of the turbine inlet) changes in synch with the wastegate opening. If true, that's an epiphany for me, and a more simple and elegant approach than separate, dedicated guide blade control by DME. Does this make sense?

It also blows a hole in my theory that Ehresmann's 'secret sauce' is cracking some ECU map or code controlling VTG guide blade actuation – the one obvious unique aspect of VTG.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
@johan and @CupraLeon --

Some more VTG background for your discussions with Jens. I'm really looking forward to hear what you learn.

https://www.ebsracing.com/files/2017 718 boxster intro lr.pdf

There is a beautiful color exploded diagram of the VTG turbo on page 40 of this internal Porsche Service Tech publication for the 718 Boxster 2.0 and 2.5 S. One thing I've gleaned from this, and a list of actuators in the DME chapter, is that contrary to my previous understanding, there is no VTG Vane Actuator (as I thought of it; they call vanes 'Guide Blades'). There is only the Wastegate Actuator for the Intergral Wastegate, same as the non-VTG 2.0.


Yet some mechanical force must be rotating the ring which alters the guide blades setting – I can only guess that the Wastegate Actuator linkage is connected to the ring somehow. That would imply the guide blade position (and with it, the Aspect Ratio of the turbine inlet) changes in synch with the wastegate opening. If true, that's an epiphany for me, and a more simple and elegant approach than separate, dedicated guide blade control by DME. Does this make sense?

It also blows a hole in my theory that Ehresmann's 'secret sauce' is cracking some ECU map or code controlling VTG guide blade actuation – the one obvious unique aspect of VTG.

I have not spoken to Jens directly about how the tune is made, don't think he will say to much.
I know that if your not order anything he does not present any boost figures etc etc
What I do know is that the added hp/boost comes in all modes and that he changes the program in the Ecu, no soldering or such.
If haven't cracked the Ecu your cant optimization only add boost as far as I know.


Some companies that do the soldering can do so Normal is stock and your getting the added hp/boost in sport and sport+
Also if you take a look at 981 numbers, that's a decent amount of Hp gained only thru optimization.


To be honest I haven't done any deep reading on how the VTG works, and this is news for me to!
 

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@johan and @CupraLeon --

Some more VTG background for your discussions with Jens. I'm really looking forward to hear what you learn.

https://www.ebsracing.com/files/2017 718 boxster intro lr.pdf

There is a beautiful color exploded diagram of the VTG turbo on page 40 of this internal Porsche Service Tech publication for the 718 Boxster 2.0 and 2.5 S. One thing I've gleaned from this, and a list of actuators in the DME chapter, is that contrary to my previous understanding, there is no VTG Vane Actuator (as I thought of it; they call vanes 'Guide Blades'). There is only the Wastegate Actuator for the Intergral Wastegate, same as the non-VTG 2.0.

I have no real technical background but here I go:
Not sure about the missing vane actuator, in the diagram you can see a control arm and to the left what I believe to be the actuator (in (petrol)blue)
It states in the file:" The DME control unit actuates the throttle valve electrically. Input variables for
activation include the position of the accelerator pedal and requests from systems
that can influence the engine torque." That last part refers to the turbo to my opinion.


Yet some mechanical force must be rotating the ring which alters the guide blades setting – I can only guess that the Wastegate Actuator linkage is connected to the ring somehow. That would imply the guide blade position (and with it, the Aspect Ratio of the turbine inlet) changes in synch with the wastegate opening. If true, that's an epiphany for me, and a more simple and elegant approach than separate, dedicated guide blade control by DME. Does this make sense?

You sir are a 'thinker' ;) the wastegate actuator works with a spring , so would be hard to 'monitor/adjust', it just opens when the required force (pressure) is met.

It also blows a hole in my theory that Ehresmann's 'secret sauce' is cracking some ECU map or code controlling VTG guide blade actuation – the one obvious unique aspect of VTG.
So I think there is no hole blown in your previous theory :D
Anyway it's nice to have people trying to get to really understand this marvellous piece of engineering.
Jens is a very capable tuner and has years of experience , as Johan mentions, Jens probably won't be giving away the 'tricks of the trade' :nerd:
When I get my tune I will try to pick his brain >:D

a picture of the turbo used on our 718 s/gts without the wastegate

https://www.google.be/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjP2Yvj_IXdAhXRDewKHcCYBr4QjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.caricos.com%2Fcars%2Fp%2Fporsche%2F2016_porsche_911_turbo%2Fimages%2F57.html&psig=AOvVaw1PM-kxSKpmKgSCbZoJEUak&ust=1535209574969582

And about the wastegate in this vid at 2:40min
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
@johan

I'm still 6 months away from delivery of my 718gts (seems like eternity), it won't be in the near future. I'm thinking of doing the tune after break in period. Maybe by then we could arrange a meet up at Ehresmann automotive ;)

Your asking me out for a date??
Ok so long as you pay ;)


If i jump on a new car it would be delivered in November, aaagh cant decide!
 
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