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Cut them then. Just for my information, can you name a few subsidies, particularly in the USA?
Wouldn't normally add anything here, but the premise is supposed to be provoking I think:
"who did this to us and how did we allow this to happen."

US subsidies question. (And the answer to EV and had industry leverage/control is lobbying and money)

How about minimal fees/drilling rights on federal land?

Oh .. and not a subsidy, but a protected market for US based gas consuming products. Chicken tax on trucks and the whole Harley story for two that re-surfaced recently.
Ford caught by the former, and Harley complaining about EU tariffs. Two sides of the same coin.

Typically, government (especially US Federal) direction driven more by corporate sponsors than citizen input, just my experience from the last 25 yrs.

So, no axe to grind myself on the topic, thinking "recreational" ICE with some sort of fuel has a long horizon anyway.
 

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thinking "recreational" ICE with some sort of fuel has a long horizon anyway.
I agree with this, and...

We need to go to non-oil combustion transport, we need the crude for plastics, lubrication, soaps, detergents, paints, textiles and much more.

We can't just have electric battery cars forced on us without the manufacturing and infrastructure (ALL low-pollution-generating!) first. Of course it doesn't all have to happen at once.

I'm also wary of the forced change and subsidies as they seemingly ignore the possibility of some technological change that turns either transport or power on its head.

For transport change look at how many people use Uber or similar and have no need/desire for a car themselves. Add self-driving and more 'work at home' and car production could get more than decimated. Imagine reduced money 'invested' in cars, garages, servicing, parking, etc.

We have much research going on about alternative power too—fusion, hydrogen, non-oil fuels (Porsche!) and who knows what else.

I had an acquaintance in the gym say "Since all creatures seem to have a purpose and an environmental niche, from microbes and worms to apex predators, has it occurred to you that mankind's purpose might be to destroy all complex life on earth?" 🤣 or 😱
 

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when i'm forced to quit driving cars, i'll hire a voluptuous babe with big bazoombas. i'll stare at them and not worry about
cars anymore. :love:
Sounds like potentially higher maintenance cost! There is no escape.
 

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US subsidies question. (And the answer to EV and had industry leverage/control is lobbying and money)

How about minimal fees/drilling rights on federal land?

Oh .. and not a subsidy, but a protected market for US based gas consuming products. Chicken tax on trucks and the whole Harley story for two that re-surfaced recently.
Ford caught by the former, and Harley complaining about EU tariffs. Two sides of the same coin.
1. Not an expert, but I do recall the Obama/Romney debate of 2012 where Obama stated oil production in the US was greatly increased and Romney responded "yes, almost all of the increase is on private land".
2. Do you think the Toyata V8 Tundra burns less gas than a Chevy Silverado? (The chicken subsidy is not an oil subsidy) In the end, consumers bought and buy V8 pickup trucks- no matter what level the "chicken tax" is.
 

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1. Not an expert, but I do recall the Obama/Romney debate of 2012 where Obama stated oil production in the US was greatly increased and Romney responded "yes, almost all of the increase is on private land".
2. Do you think the Toyata V8 Tundra burns less gas than a Chevy Silverado? (The chicken subsidy is not an oil subsidy) In the end, consumers bought and buy V8 pickup trucks- no matter what level the "chicken tax" is.
#1 .. increase vs existing, either way it happens/happened.

#2. Point was more about the idea that government should be hands off and "open market". Rarely happens in any profit centric arena. For better or worse, which is perspective dependant.

That's valid for all countries, all parties. Just different objectives.
 

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we've had electric cars almost since the first car hit the streets. the fact remains they all used electricity obtained from power plants. aren't we just exchanging where its generated to where it's consumed? where's the greenery in that.
nuclear power would truly be a greener alternative. the tree-huggers don't like it because of waste disposal.
a valid concern. would you want a car you could only go 300-350mi. in and risk being stranded?
ev's are a good option for urban areas where charging stations are plentiful. not for driving across the southwest on a trip.
that's my rant! sorry. i'll quit driving first! :confused:
I'm thinking long term, nuclear fusion is the answer. It has to be, there's isn't really any meaningful alternative. Not if in the decades to come, everyone is driving an EV. Hopefully in 5-10 years time we'll have EVs doing 400+ miles on a charge. Not sure how that would work in the USA, but I think for 'most' people in the UK, a 400 range is plenty. There's not many times someone is doing a 400 mile round trip and can't get to a charging station.

The green issue aside though, I love the fact I never have to visit a petrol station (UK petrol prices 😭), oil changes, big services etc etc.

What I don't like, especially when talking about a Porsche, is that an EV doesn't have a soul. I like the character, the sound, the theatre. It's an event, a special occassion.

Your day to day car, EV all day long. I'd never buy another petrol family car. Even if there wasn't an environmental reason for an EV, I'd still get one because I love how they drive.
 

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i was 12 years old when I spent a summer wearing out my WalkMan listening to Rush's Moving Pictures over and over and over again. 'Red Barchetta' consumed my imagination day after day and brought tears to my eyes in sheer excitement every time the young man avoided the authorities while racing through the valley with his fellow outlaws.

39 years later, i realize now, more than ever, that 'Red Barchetta' IS my future. i want nothing to do with EVs.
Speaking of Rush, when people talk about EV and the Government, it reminds me of the song "Big Money". As Chester7 said, EV's are great as long as the Government stays out of it ...... the problem is too many Government officials are personally invested in it. You can't tell me they don't pass legislation that will help themselves in the long run ....... and not just where EVs are concerned.
 

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Speaking of Rush, when people talk about EV and the Government, it reminds me of the song "Big Money". As Chester7 said, EV's are great as long as the Government stays out of it ...... the problem is too many Government officials are personally invested in it. You can't tell me they don't pass legislation that will help themselves in the long run ....... and not just where EVs are concerned.
nuclear fusion is the obvious direction to move. although there may still be disposal issues involved.
if people realized how much actual space was involved for disposal of nuclear waste, they would say "how did the tree-huggers ever talk us into this mess"? except for the rooskie screw-up and the accident waiting to happen at tokashima,
nuclear power has been very trouble-free. but the michael douglas' and jane fondas' of the world love kicking dog-terds.

i stil believe that nuke power, at least for the next 50-100yrs. is the way to go. but then, if we would ease up on the extra-terrestrial
madness we've pursued for the past 75yrs., and opened dialogs with these "little green men" we might find some truly
amazing energy technology!

afterall, the invention of warp drive by zephram cochrane, in 2063, ain't that far away!
 

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Do you realize that oil & gas are also receiving massive tax cuts and subsidies all over the world?
Renewables are already cheaper to produce and maintain. Competing fairly would mean cutting the subsidies for big oil as well.

I find it funny how people lead with 'i'm not against' or 'i dont have a problem with' and then go on a massive rant that proves the opposite :ROFLMAO:
I'm for eliminating fossil fuel subsidies too, but let's look at the facts: The U.S. government spends $3.5 billion per year subsidizing the coal, petroleum and natural gas industries. By contrast, the Feds give $15 billion every year in subsidies to the wind and solar projects industry and $20 billion per year for agricultural subsidies and insurance. In other words, the green industries receive TEN times as much government money as does oil, gas, and coal. I would rather the government not spend my money on ANY of these things.

On top of that, you get a $7,500 reduction in your taxes if you buy a Taycan or a Tesla. I don't remember anyone giving me that kind of tax break on my new Cayman.

And if you drive a petrol car, you pay a significant amount of tax when you purchase gasoline and that is, in part, how we pay for our roads. Yet electric vehicles use those same roads without paying that road tax. Shouldn't EVs pay for the roads they use?

Finally, if you take a look at a three year cost of ownership you will find that an EV is NOT cheaper to purchase, operate, and maintain. It's more expensive. Here are two examples:
Mini Hardtop: $41,454 Mini Electric: $49,312
Hyundai Kona: $39,817 Hyundai Kona Electric: $55,311

According to real world studies you'll pay roughly three to five thousand dollars more per year to own, maintain, and operate a small EV if you drive15,000 miles per year, which is about average.
 

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The EV and road use tax is a factor I've been thinking over. No easy fix, as residential electrons have many uses.
As transition continues, will be a larger gap/loophole. Hmm .. closing tax loopholes.

Tax credit on EV's also a thorn. Any automaker can leverage it/subsidize their products, so that's fair.
As for the tax payer/buyer dilemma, definitely an opportunity if you're in the new car market.
Otherwise, incentive payment to get a charging network built (by driving customer count up) .. wether you want. it or not.

Potential upside .. autonomous trucks running overnight on drive'n charge freeways WILL reduce daytime traffic.

Yes .. truck driver jobs etc ... unfortunate but inevitable. Driven by free-market industry needs to reduce costs.

**** .. got sucked in. Need to drive an extra 100 fun miles this weekend as a rant-on offset.
 

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According to real world studies you'll pay roughly three to five thousand dollars more per year to own, maintain, and operate a small EV if you drive15,000 miles per year, which is about average.
Mozella, thank you for cutting to the heart of the matter. EV has a long way to go. And further to your gasoline tax argument, an additional cost will come when EV's market share exceeds ~50%- another new tax to cover road maintenance. Yes, the EV. Yet another dream foisted on the public by economic-illiterate bureaucrats. Let the market decide when its time to convert.

And automated trucks? No thanks. I love the period between 4:00 AM and 6:00 AM when long-haul truck drivers are sleeping and the interstate is mine. I do not look forward to the day when the road is constantly clogged by robots.
 

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Mozella, thank you for cutting to the heart of the matter. EV has a long way to go. And further to your gasoline tax argument, an additional cost will come when EV's market share exceeds ~50%- another new tax to cover road maintenance. ......... snip...............
Not all Americans are as gullible as the Swamp Creatures would like. In spite of all the hype, EV's represent only about 2% of vehicles. So there is a long way to go before they constitute half the cars on the road. I'll drive one when it makes sense, but for now my petrol cars are a much better choice.
 

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I'm for eliminating fossil fuel subsidies too, but let's look at the facts: The U.S. government spends $3.5 billion per year subsidizing the coal, petroleum and natural gas industries. By contrast, the Feds give $15 billion every year in subsidies to the wind and solar projects industry and $20 billion per year for agricultural subsidies and insurance. In other words, the green industries receive TEN times as much government money as does oil, gas, and coal. I would rather the government not spend my money on ANY of these things.

On top of that, you get a $7,500 reduction in your taxes if you buy a Taycan or a Tesla. I don't remember anyone giving me that kind of tax break on my new Cayman.

And if you drive a petrol car, you pay a significant amount of tax when you purchase gasoline and that is, in part, how we pay for our roads. Yet electric vehicles use those same roads without paying that road tax. Shouldn't EVs pay for the roads they use?

Finally, if you take a look at a three year cost of ownership you will find that an EV is NOT cheaper to purchase, operate, and maintain. It's more expensive. Here are two examples:
Mini Hardtop: $41,454 Mini Electric: $49,312
Hyundai Kona: $39,817 Hyundai Kona Electric: $55,311

According to real world studies you'll pay roughly three to five thousand dollars more per year to own, maintain, and operate a small EV if you drive15,000 miles per year, which is about average.
I think those government incentives are just that, a way to get people off fossil fuels. It's a good idea, considering we're still very early adopters and the infrastructure isn't quite ready. You can bet they will stop in the future and move the tax over to EVs.

Luckily I actually like them 😂 EVs not taxes!!
 

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I think those government incentives are just that, a way to get people off fossil fuels. It's a good idea, ......... snip...................
No doubt the incentives are a way to get people off fossil fuels, but saying it's a "good idea" doesn't make it so. If it really were a good idea, like the transition from horses to cars, then it would be happening on it's own without uninformed government officials tilting the playing field.

Demonizing fossil fuels is certainly popular with a lot of people these days, but saying gasoline is bad doesn't make it bad.

In fact, gasoline is a fantastic fuel and if the old Baker Electric car had been the norm in our country for the past 110 years, the invention of gasoline powered cars, had it not happened until the year 2020, would be a wonder and nearly everyone would immediately switch to gasoline, especially along with the current technology for extracting oil so efficiently.
 

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@chester7 and @Mozella and anyone else questioning government subsidies:

Please look up the term 'percentage depletion allowance', a tax break that mining and oil and gas companies get which is outlandish by the measure of common mortals.

To make the long story short and specifically for oil and gas:

You can deduct 15% of you gross income due to oil and gas production.

Example:

I produce $1M worth of oil at $50/barrel, my cost of production is $35/barrel (or my net profit is $15/barrel or 30%). Net profit is $300k, my percentage depletion allowance is $150k, so I pay taxes on $150k. Is anyone here that would not call this a bargain?

Can you compare this to the EV subsidy of a few thousand dollars per car for the first two hundred thousand cars,with a straight face?

Since 1910 it is estimated that $450 billion was given to the percentage depletion allowance beneficiaries (Wikipedia), and you know that the early billions were worth much more.

And the percentage depletion allowance is only one of the myriad tax breaks the oil and gas business gets. Actually, with the exception of some majors (ExxonMobil and Chevron that I know, but maybe some others as well) most oil and gas producers pay little or no taxes.
 

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Not all Americans are as gullible as the Swamp Creatures would like. In spite of all the hype, EV's represent only about 2% of vehicles. So there is a long way to go before they constitute half the cars on the road. I'll drive one when it makes sense, but for now my petrol cars are a much better choice.
Was going to chime in that 2% of cars are EV. These car companies have a massive growth curve if they want most of their models all electric. No way it happens by 2030.
2040...sure
I'm sticking with petrol as long as I can for at least a "summer car" to enjoy.
 

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Since 1910 it is estimated that $450 billion was given to the percentage depletion allowance beneficiaries (Wikipedia), and you know that the early billions were worth much more.
Thank you DriveInHouston. You have just demonstrated why the US government should just get out of the way of the free market. These "enlightened" bureaucrats give "percentage depletion" and at the same time (yesterday) revoke permission to drill on public lands in Alaska and (two months ago) revoke authority to complete the Keystone pipeline.

In short, the government works at cross purposes with itself- and we suffer the fallout.
 

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I've an EV for commuting and the 718 for fun. I absolutely cannot wait until there's a "Fun" sporty EV worthy of swapping out my BS for (that I can afford). An electrified Boxster? OMG, bring it on!!!
 

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Eminent domain land acquisition for the pipeline, back to government intervention. Tough to get anything this big done without it.

Add the privatization of power (electric) distribution and required ongoing investments, and country wide power infrastructure gets to be a better+with-both situation?

Did it again .. +100 miles.
 
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