[jdstein11]

Ok, I realize there are MANY posts about winter tires, so let me start off this is NOT the same. I have a 2018 718 Boxster with summer 20” tires. Normally I only drive it in temps above 45F and live near Princeton, NJ, USA.

My specific question is: what am I risking if I drive in colder temps than what is recommended? I’m NOT considering any wet or snowy weather, just dry, sunny days where I just want to take it out. Are there any adverse normal driving performance factors I should be aware of, or is the risk only that summer tires just “don’t perform as well” in winter?

Thanks in advance.

 

[phroenips]

Even in dry conditions, summer tires have significantly less available grip below ~45ºF. This doesn't just affect handling, but also stopping distances.

Not sure which tires you have, but for what it's worth, Michelin explicitly warns against even storing the Pilot Sport 4S in cold temperatures:

Note: Tires exposed to temperatures of 20 degrees F (-7 degrees C) or lower must be permitted to gradually return to temperatures of at least 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) for at least 24 hours before they are flexed in any manner, such as by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels or using them to support, roll or drive a vehicle.

Flexing of the specialized rubber compounds used in Max Performance Summer tires during cold-weather use can result in irreversible compound cracking. Compound cracking is not a warrantable condition because it occurs as the result of improper use or storage, tires exhibiting compound cracking must be replaced.

 

[MikePhDPE]

define dangerous

 

[Westcoaster]

The post above by @phroenips pretty much sums it up... if the Max or UHP summer tires are at or below that 40 degree temperature and you do just about anything except admire them you risk damaging some very expensive tires!

But hey, what could Michelin possibly know about such things?

IMHO, it is safer for you and those around you to have suitable tires for the expected conditions because there is no such thing as taking it easy during emergency avoidance maneuvers or stopping!

 

[phroenips]

Another way to look at it is to ask yourself what your insurance deductible is. And how much is a set of winter tires? That doesn't even consider the potential physical injury of you or others.

 

[MLJJ]

And the potential legal liability you may face if you injure someone while knowingly using summer tires beyond their thermal limits.

 

[Westcoaster]

We have roadways around (BC) here that between October 1st and March 31st, M+S tires are mandatory or you could be ticketed even in a road side check. In Quebec all vehicles have to install them from December 1st to March 15 inclusively.

 

[Third]

Ok, I realize there are MANY posts about winter tires, so let me start off this is NOT the same. I have a 2018 718 Boxster with summer 20” tires. Normally I only drive it in temps above 45F and live near Princeton, NJ, USA.

My specific question is: what am I risking if I drive in colder temps than what is recommended? I’m NOT considering any wet or snowy weather, just dry, sunny days where I just want to take it out. Are there any adverse normal driving performance factors I should be aware of, or is the risk only that summer tires just “don’t perform as well” in winter?

Thanks in advance.

If you have something else to drive when temps drop into the 40s (F) and below (with or without winter precip), my advice is to leave your Boxster parked except to take it out and get the engine up to temperature once a week or so to keep things moving. There is a noticeable difference in handling - and that includes stopping - when summer tires are used in cold weather. The difference can be quite discomforting to be sure. On the other hand, if yours is a daily driver, my advice is to spring (no pun intended) for winter tires.

 

[LittleBlueGT]

I talked to an engineer at Michelin at length about this. Of course no official answer, but....

-Sport Cup 2S are affected much more in cold temps then Pilot Sport 4S.
-there are people all over the country that live in drier areas that drive their GT cars in the spring and fall. And it is not uncommon for the morning temps to be 30-40, but then it easily gets up to 60 or 70 in the afternoon.

-my last set of Super Sports lasted 7 years and were often driven in 25F temps first thing in the morning. Yes I had winters for the winter, but I wasn’t going to change them out when there was no snow/ice and I know the next day would be 65F! They had no cracking or any adverse affects.

Yes, they had less grip, but it was like 0.6 g performance vs 1.0 g performance.

in fact I would describe it like driving on a wet road.

Many would be surprised to know that many tires can easily hit .8G in the wet, where as they can hit 1.0 g in the dry. The difference being that in the dry when they lose traction they regain it much faster, but in the wet when you lose traction it is harder to regain it. Same thing when driving a summer tire in 30F temps.

now, I’m not saying drive them in snow or ice, or even saying you should drive them in cold weather. but, if you think they are going to crack, or have absolutely horrible traction in 20-30F temps, you are mistaken. Now, when temps get down to 0F, or even -20 or -30 (and yes, I get those temps) it is a competely different story.

 

[LittleBlueGT]

 

[jimmuller]

One of the printed items I got with my new Cayman said UHP tires could be damaged by driving below 19degF. I wasn't ready to park my 6 month old car that quickly so I just watched the temperature. I drove it at 20 or higher but very gently until the tires warmed up. The tires, PS4S, seemed to be okay with that.

 

[jdstein11]

Thanks to everyone for your input. Yes I have another daily driver, although I do work from home and don’t do much daily driving. ? that is why I wanted to ask the question because when I do get an opportunity to take out my car, I absolutely want to take advantage of it. From what I’ve read here, and the video posted by @LittleBlueGT, it seems to me that as long as I’m not tailgating anyone and leave appropriate stopping distance – which is how I drive anyway - I really should be fine at most temperatures. I am still a little unclear about the whole cracking thing, and would appreciate any insight anyone can lend. I have gone through a set of tires and two sets of brake pads after three separate two day track events this summer but really have no interest in replacing tires other than for when I’m at the track. ? Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Also, I found the article on TireRack that covers this as well for anyone interested. I think I'll look to take it out only when above freezing to avoid the permanent damage described in the article. https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=273

 

[Westcoaster]

And for those who's car were sitting overnight at lower temperatures: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=220

Tires accidentally exposed to temperatures of 20 degrees F (-7 degrees C) or lower must be permitted to gradually return to temperatures of at least 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) for at least 24 hours before they are flexed by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels, or using them to support, roll or drive a vehicle.

When I swapped over to the winter set my wife was not surprised to see me tuck those UHP summer tire into our nice warm basement, but she did say on no uncertain terms that they could come into the living room!

 

[craig66]

When I swapped over to the winter set my wife was not surprised to see me tuck those UHP summer tire into our nice warm basement, but she did say on no uncertain terms that they could come into the living room!

Did you really feel it was necessary? I find that my attached garage even in the dead of winter in NJ will not go below 50 degrees (Which doesn't thrill me because that means I am probably losing a bunch of heat from the house to the garage) so for this reason I do not move my tires indoors.

Thanks

 

[Westcoaster]

Did you really feel it was necessary? I find that my attached garage even in the dead of winter in NJ will not go below 50 degrees (Which doesn't thrill me because that means I am probably losing a bunch of heat from the house to the garage) so for this reason I do not move my tires indoors.

Thanks

If your stays at 50F or above then you should be fine. My other option was to keep them in the 'detached' garage which doesn't stay warm enough.

I plan on adding a hot air vent into the attached garage to actually keep it warmer in the winter, more flow in our HVAC system wouldn't hurt and would keep things dry, once that is done then the summer tires can stay out there.

 

[GTS18BGTS]

There are probably countless people who own "performance cars" fitted with performance tires that have never given this a thought as they probably have never given anything related to their cars performance a second thought. These are the people who by a certain car for the prestige quotient or something other than the performance quotient. They drive their car with Summer tires year round unless they are certain to be driving in snow, then they have the hubby change them. I believe this to be the reality of things.

I have never driven any of my sports cars in snow and certainly not intentionally. I can recall one rare occasion when snow happened unexpectedly while I was out. Took it slow home and the car didn't see the streets until there was no snow in sight. I have always driven these cars in cold weather with what ever tires I've had fitted. Never been an issue and it shouldn't be if driving within the limits. I'd image a 718 on bald tires would have better capabilities than a decent majority of cars on the road considering the brakes and the rest of the features built into the suspension and drivetrain and of course it's phenomenal balance. JMO. Your milage may vary.

 

[Third]

Thanks to everyone for your input. Yes I have another daily driver, although I do work from home and don’t do much daily driving. ? that is why I wanted to ask the question because when I do get an opportunity to take out my car, I absolutely want to take advantage of it. From what I’ve read here, and the video posted by @LittleBlueGT, it seems to me that as long as I’m not tailgating anyone and leave appropriate stopping distance – which is how I drive anyway - I really should be fine at most temperatures. I am still a little unclear about the whole cracking thing, and would appreciate any insight anyone can lend. I have gone through a set of tires and two sets of brake pads after three separate two day track events this summer but really have no interest in replacing tires other than for when I’m at the track. ? Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Also, I found the article on TireRack that covers this as well for anyone interested. I think I'll look to take it out only when above freezing to avoid the permanent damage described in the article. https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=273

While my advice was to suggest getting winter tires for a daily driver in the 40s and below, I'm also here to say I drove my previous Caymans year round with summer tires for five or six years as well as my 2018 through its first winter with the OEM summers, all with no adverse consequences. None of my driving was in any winter precip and probably nothing colder than the upper teens (and the latter on rare occasions.) My garage is attached and generally doesn't get colder than the 40s. I just this month put winter tires on my 718 and in the recent cold snap (temps in the 30s) found the ride quite a bit more confident than before. That explains my advice. The difference in handling is perceptible to be sure, not to mention the peace of mind I have behind the wheel with the winters mounted. All things considered, is it truly necessary to swap under the winter conditions I (and it sounds like you plan to) drive? Probably not. But it does make a difference on at least a couple of meaningful levels.

 

[Westcoaster]

I suppose that I have a bit of a different view about driving any vehicle, but especially a Porsche that can come fitted with a UHP summer tire specifically designed to grab every last bit of traction at temperatures above 45F.

To me it is not about being able to save a few buck on tires for a $100k car and sneak through the bad weather hoping to avoid a situation where maximum traction and performance would help me avoid the unexpected, for example we live where the deer are always testing your driving skills on blind corners at night! This is but a single example, but I think my point is clear.

The other revelation was driving my Boxster, caught at work with an unexpected snow fall of only a few inches just below freezing, it was late so I opted to drive the deserted roads home, just a few miles fortunately with no hills except my driveway but I figured it was just a few degrees of slope, with barely an inch of snow I could not get up the incline, the wife had even shoveled me a path and reduce the snow depth but is wasn't enough. Eventually as it was now a couple of degrees above zero I used the garden hose to flush the snow off of the driveway, this was on Bridgestome RE50A tires. I decided then that if winter driving was to be an option then snow tires were necessary to avoid this scenario.

The second revelation was driving my next Boxster on Pirelli performance snow tires, simply amazing, almost as if the snow wasn't there at all, the previous Boxster that couldn't handle 1" of snow was bested by one plowing through nearly 5" of the stuff with complete composure and confidence. For me the knowledge of having the appropriate tires for the conditions, conditions that where I live can change without much warning allow me to enjoy the drive no matter the conditions.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[GTS18BGTS]

@Westcoaster - Can't argue with anything you said and it's always a good idea to error on the side of caution no doubt. Like you, I was caught out in a snowfall of about 2-3 inches. That was a long time ago while driving my Supra turbo. Took it slow on the way home and needed a push from a neighbor to get into the garage.

My response was addressing the overly cautious tones on the subject as if one would slide off the road into a ditch just for thinking about taking their car out on Summers in cold weather. I think if one drives within the bounds of the limits set, there's little risk of that. Obviously as in anything else, everyone should consider their own situations, conditions, abilities, etc.

For the record, I have a set of low mileage Winters in the garage that came with the car. I had the dealer swap them out for PS4S prior to delivery. They're not mounted as a result. I don't plan on taking either of my cars out in snow, though that could certainly happen as a surprise as it did back then. Living here in Pittsburgh, if that did happen, it would be Uber for me. There's barely any flat ground for hundreds of miles lol Fortunately I have a 4x4 truck for doing so when I know the weather is suspect. Not a luxury everyone has.

 

[Treemagnet]

@Westcoaster - Living here in Pittsburgh, if that did happen, it would be Uber for me. There's barely any flat ground for hundreds of miles lol.

I guaranteed we'd Uber if we were in your snowy hills and our 718 BS was the only option.

The Pittsburgh area has some of the most enjoyable (dry) and challenging winter roads I've ever encountered. Spent several mid-70's Summer and Christmas undergraduate breaks with my parents in that area (their back yard exited into the
"wilds" of North Park).

Mom was crazy enough to let me drive her 72 Chevy Impala wagon to the Park's outdoor ice rink each night, fortunately without incident. Thank God it had snow tires with studs. Unfortunately, they weren't enough to keep that lead sled from gliding...ever so gracefully in 2 mph slo-mo...over a 20' embankment on our way to Seven Springs. No injuries, car unscathed (or so I thought), and we all hit the ski lifts just as they opened (minus $120 for towing).

I confessed 25 years later (car long gone)...finally, Mom knew why her passenger front tire had to be replaced every 5,000 miles. Snowy off camber roads suck, especially for the uninitiated who learned to drive on blazing hot/sticky Houston TX roads. ?