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Discussion Starter #1
Hi Group,

Long time lurker but I thought I would post regarding my ECU flash experience I had yesterday at Vivid Racing. I've got a '17 982CMT base and have been waiting to get close to end of warranty. Well, I couldn't pass up the sale price they're having right now, so, I went for it.

I removed the ECU early in morning, dropped it off at about 10:00 a.m. (Vivid is located in Mesa near my home in the East Valley of Phoenix). They called my at ~1:30 p.m. and said it was ready.

Picked it up, got home and re-installed it.

Before I go with impressions I chose their 2tage 2 map, which on their dyno produces about 350lb ft. and 367Hp. Which to the wheel would be ~15-20% less. OTOH, Porsche is very conservative with their published specifications, so, even the base model, based on dynamometer data, produces slightly more power.

Anyway, ECU flashed, remapped, and reinstalled:

First engine start: a small but noticeable change in startup bark and growl (stock exhaust) with the idle being just as smooth as before.
Driving: quickly shifting through 1st, and a long transition through 2nd to third, the torque was explosive. Power delivery at the top arc of the rev counter is amazingly consistent now; you could always feel the boost tapering rapidly under high rev, hard acceleration. Third gear yields another tractor-pull-like crescendo of torque, and just pulling beautifully to the limiter, no trough in power deliver as with stock. As you transit fourth, it is also noticeable better. However, I haven't driven enough miles yet to really tell. In any case,

Because we've had numerous thunderstorms in Phoenix yesterday, I really haven't driven it enough, but I would say that the it has been an absolute epic joy to drive since yesterday!

Downside: I don't think that any more torque than this usable with the stock gearing and tires: It's not that you ever have too much power (you only have too much power when you are breaking traction in every gear), it's that you don't have enough traction for the stratospheric power that cars have today. Having said that, with my 12k factory Pirelli's with traction control on, 'm noticing the traction annunciator illuminating way more then I've ever seen it. A fresh set of rubber would be different...

IMHO, higher torque then this would have to be geared differently for this setup. If the output numbers are to be believed, my car now has more torque than the 981GT4 / 718GT4, and it's delivered at ~2k r.p.m., not 5k.

The exhaust note is tragic, but once you drive the 718 base / S / GTS, you kinda don't care that it's a turbo-four, because it's just awesome! Nothing sounds like an NA Flat-Six, but when I drive my neighbors 987CS, it really feels tired until you get it on the boil, same for the 981.

I have no affiliation with Vivid Racing. I'm a really regular guy that has a day job that has nothing to do with cars or tuning or car products, or anything related to cars ect. ect. ect. Please don't flame me for saying that Tyler and the team at Vivid were professional and fantastic to deal with. Also, the price is really good right now...

Cheers,

Greg
 

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I'm curious. Did you choose to go with Vivid just because of proximity to home? I would like to get my CS tuned at some point, closer to the end of warranty.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I'm curious. Did you choose to go with Vivid just because of proximity to home? I would like to get my CS tuned at some point, closer to the end of warranty.
Yes and no. I simply wanted a firm with a lot of good feedback, and therefore I didn't necessarily care where in the U.S. (or the world) the firm was located. Vivid fits the quality of business I was looking for and happened to be a few miles from my home.

It really comes down to your comfort level: modern insured shipping with tracking and signature gives me piece of mind when I have to send something like this off. I build a lot of high-end audio electronics (as as hobbyist) that are worth way more then an ECU and at times are heavy. I've been shipped pieces all over the world for years and never had an issue.

Pack it very well, employ all of the shipping safeguards and send it to the firm of your choice.

Cheers,

Greg
 

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Downside: I don't think that any more torque than this usable with the stock gearing and tires: It's not that you ever have too much power (you only have too much power when you are breaking traction in every gear), it's that you don't have enough traction for the stratospheric power that cars have today. Having said that, with my 12k factory Pirelli's with traction control on, 'm noticing the traction annunciator illuminating way more then I've ever seen it. A fresh set of rubber would be different...

IMHO, higher torque then this would have to be geared differently for this setup. If the output numbers are to be believed, my car now has more torque than the 981GT4 / 718GT4, and it's delivered at ~2k r.p.m., not 5k.

The exhaust note is tragic, but once you drive the 718 base / S / GTS, you kinda don't care that it's a turbo-four, because it's just awesome! Nothing sounds like an NA Flat-Six, but when I drive my neighbors 987CS, it really feels tired until you get it on the boil, same for the 981.
I think new tyres would make a big difference, certainly did in my case. Just out of curiosity, what does VR's stage 2 entail? Is it purely an ECU remap, or does it include include intake and cat / downpipe upgrades?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I think new tyres would make a big difference, certainly did in my case. Just out of curiosity, what does VR's stage 2 entail? Is it purely an ECU remap, or does it include include intake and cat / downpipe upgrades?
Just the ECU flash. I don't think that I will do anything else, but, it might be fun to to do the intake manifolds. The problem is the tune was optimized with the stock intake manifold. Swapping the manifold is a lot of work, both the intercooler and airbox have to be removed.

Although swapping the CAT / down pipes and the rest of the exhaust system might yield a bit more output, it would really have to be retuned, putting the car on the dyno and customizing the map.

At this point the car has loads of power. I think better money would be go with the 992 at some point and would probably do a non-S and have a remap done on it.

Yes, some new rubber would help!

Cheers,

Greg
 

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Thanks Greg. Wow, that's quite a gain (+ 67 hp / 70 lb-ft, 22/25%) from just a ECU tune. Do you know what sort of boost pressure it's running? (You won't be able to tell from the instrument cluster, as that can't be recalibrated to show actual.)

I take take your point about the 992. I know of one company offering +190 hp (+ 50%!!!) for the base Carrera. They obtain the same final figures (572hp / 480 Ib-ft) regardless of whether S or non-S.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks Greg. Wow, that's quite a gain (+ 67 hp / 70 lb-ft, 22/25%) from just a ECU tune. Do you know what sort of boost pressure it's running? (You won't be able to tell from the instrument cluster, as that can't be recalibrated to show actual.)

I take take your point about the 992. I know of one company offering +190 hp (+ 50%!!!) for the base Carrera. They obtain the same final figures (572hp / 480 Ib-ft) regardless of whether S or non-S.
I do not know, but I will call and find out.

Yes, it's really a big difference for the base model. The car is really a lot of fun, and still the brilliant balance that it is.

Cannot recommend it enough. Again, Porsche leadership is conservative an they are also holding the motor back.

The power increase makes you drive like a hooligan.

Cheers,

Greg
 

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Thanks for the great update! So glad you are satisfied with the tune. I'm waiting on APR to release their GTS tune. I still have 3 1/2 years of warranty left. I'll probably wait until next year at this time when I have 2.5 years warranty left.
 

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Thanks for the great update! So glad you are satisfied with the tune. I'm waiting on APR to release their GTS tune. I still have 3 1/2 years of warranty left. I'll probably wait until next year at this time when I have 2.5 years warranty left.
I would just get the Vivid now, amazing price and these guys are fantastic. At least pay for it now to get the price then send the ECU in when you are ready. If you live near APR, that's great. However, in reality it really isn't necessary to be near the tuner.

VR Tuned ECU Flash Tune Porsche 718 Boxster GTS 2.5L Turbo 365hp

I did not feel comfortable doing this at early ownership, but if I could do it over I would have just done it right away (after break-in). You of course will be able to revert it back, and do it yourself, if you have to take it in. I still have 1.5 years of warranty, so I will flash it back if need be. That's IF something is wrong.

Cheers,

Greg
 

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I would just get the Vivid now, amazing price and these guys are fantastic. At least pay for it now to get the price then send the ECU in when you are ready. If you live near APR, that's great. However, in reality it really isn't necessary to be near the tuner.


I did not feel comfortable doing this at early ownership, but if I could do it over I would have just done it right away (after break-in). You of course will be able to revert it back, and do it yourself, if you have to take it in. I still have 1.5 years of warranty, so I will flash it back if need be. That's IF something is wrong.

Cheers,

Greg
Two points:

- As with most ECU tunes, there's this disclaimer:
This product is for Racing Competition only and is not legal for use in highway or street vehicles or other non-racing competition off-road vehicles.
Purchasing this product requires you to sign our Vehicle Compliance Waiver here.

I mention this because basically, it means you forfeit your warranty even if you return the car to stock via re-flash. The waiver you sign is key to that. Furthermore, the same disclaimer and waiver exist for VR's Germany-sourced piggyback tunes, such as this one for the 2.0L. So ... everyone ... install at your warranty's risk.

- While Vivid Racing does on-site tuning for ECU re-flashes, I am almost certain that it does not develop the tunes themselves -- i.e., the coding. VR's branded tunes are actually developed by a third party -- in fact, much of VR's massive selection of parts (for nearly 20 makes, to boot) are re-branded third-party products. I, for one, would be curious to know what that third party is that VR uses for re-flashes-- particularly on those piggyback tunes (Ehresmann, maybe?)
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Three points:

- You say your Vivid tune was for a base 718 with the 2.0L; the link above was for a GTS with the 2.5L. I fixed your link to refer to the 2.0L tune. Development of tunes has progressed at different rates for these two motors worldwide; it's important to keep references straight.

- As with most ECU tunes, there's this disclaimer:
This product is for Racing Competition only and is not legal for use in highway or street vehicles or other non-racing competition off-road vehicles.
Purchasing this product requires you to sign our Vehicle Compliance Waiver here.

I mention this because basically, it means you forfeit your warranty even if you return the car to stock via re-flash. The waiver you sign is key to that. Furthermore, the same disclaimer and waiver exist for VR's Germany-sourced piggyback tunes, such as this one for the 2.0L. So ... everyone ... install at your warranty's risk.

- While Vivid Racing does on-site tuning for ECU re-flashes, I am almost certain that it does not develop the tunes themselves -- i.e., the coding. VR's branded tunes are actually developed by a third party -- in fact, much of VR's massive selection of parts (for nearly 20 makes, to boot) are re-branded third-party products. I, for one, would be curious to know what that third party is that VR uses for re-flashes-- particularly on those piggyback tunes (Ehresmann, maybe?)
Viffermike,

This was intentional: the link I provided was for the GTS as that is the correct flash for Chester7's GTS.

Please re-read the posting.

Cheers,

Greg
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Three points:

- You say your Vivid tune was for a base 718 with the 2.0L; the link above was for a GTS with the 2.5L. I fixed your link to refer to the 2.0L tune. Development of tunes has progressed at different rates for these two motors worldwide; it's important to keep references straight.

- As with most ECU tunes, there's this disclaimer:
This product is for Racing Competition only and is not legal for use in highway or street vehicles or other non-racing competition off-road vehicles.
Purchasing this product requires you to sign our Vehicle Compliance Waiver here.

I mention this because basically, it means you forfeit your warranty even if you return the car to stock via re-flash. The waiver you sign is key to that. Furthermore, the same disclaimer and waiver exist for VR's Germany-sourced piggyback tunes, such as this one for the 2.0L. So ... everyone ... install at your warranty's risk.

- While Vivid Racing does on-site tuning for ECU re-flashes, I am almost certain that it does not develop the tunes themselves -- i.e., the coding. VR's branded tunes are actually developed by a third party -- in fact, much of VR's massive selection of parts (for nearly 20 makes, to boot) are re-branded third-party products. I, for one, would be curious to know what that third party is that VR uses for re-flashes-- particularly on those piggyback tunes (Ehresmann, maybe?)
Viffermike,

So, you want me to ensure that I post the legality of the action? Yes, any tuning firm will ask you to sign a waiver if they are going to open the ECU and perform said software mods.

Secondly, I have absolutely no idea where the tunes come from, nor does it interest me. The tunes are conservative, far less than what Ehresmann achieves with the 2.0 motor.

So, in conclusion, you want me to post all disclosures when I post anything and everything that may have legal, financial or safety implications and make sure that I also disclose that I have no idea where the tunes come from?

This is a tuning forum, many tuning items (ECU flashes aside) could or shall void your manufacturers warranty.

Regards,

Greg
 

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Greg,

This indeed is a sub-forum about turbos and tuning. However, you might be surprised on how many people may read this thread and all they see is '70+ more horsepower' o_O and nothing else.

The discussion that Mike requested does service to our forum members, so they don't get an unpleasant surprise down the road, finding themselves with no warranty coverage.

The implications of tuning in terms of warranty coverage are just as important to some as the implications of horsepower increase.

Please don't get upset, you don't have to quote legal language every time you write something, but it would be nice to share this side of experiences too (i.e. the dealers position, what can and cannot be accepted etc).

Best regards,
 

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Viffermike,

So, you want me to ensure that I post the legality of the action? Yes, any tuning firm will ask you to sign a waiver if they are going to open the ECU and perform said software mods.

Secondly, I have absolutely no idea where the tunes come from, nor does it interest me. The tunes are conservative, far less than what Ehresmann achieves with the 2.0 motor.

So, in conclusion, you want me to post all disclosures when I post anything and everything that may have legal, financial or safety implications and make sure that I also disclose that I have no idea where the tunes come from?

This is a tuning forum, many tuning items (ECU flashes aside) could or shall void your manufacturers warranty.

Regards,

Greg
Your previous post has been fixed; my apologies, as well as to @chester7 .

I don't need you to ensure anything. All I'm doing is pointing out the pitfalls to those who may not be aware of them -- and believe me, there are plenty who aren't. It's common for those who choose to flash an ECU to revert back to stock for service, or to sell the car, or for several other reasons -- all of which are potentially surreptitious if the car's operated at all on public roads. That waiver is a paper trail that proves that the car's had its brain modified -- an important detail if someone attempts to re-flash the ECU back to OEM for any of the aforementioned reasons.

Also: You may not care where the tune comes from, but plenty of others will care and do care. That's part and parcel to why different tunes, with different Stage levels, exist -- some are successful, others aren't, and still others can brick a car (and have). The flash-tuning marketplace is littered with outfits the world over that have produced subpar tunes. I, for one, would want to know that a re-branded car OS was stable, reputable, and wouldn't do unintentional harm no matter where the car was to be operated.

That, sir, is all I was pointing out: Buyer beware, and buyer be aware.

Forums and threads like this are places for discussion. I was continuing the discussion. If you don't welcome discussion and simply want to tout (maybe even try to sell) a product, please be up front about that.

(Finally: I will not get into VR itself, except to recommend that potential customers do research on it.)
 

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Surely, according to the disclaimer, this would also invalidate insurance?

As to a reflash, don't Porsche have a way of interrogating the ECU and would know if the car had been flashed?
 

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Surely, according to the disclaimer, this would also invalidate insurance?

As to a reflash, don't Porsche have a way of interrogating the ECU and would know if the car had been flashed?
I think that there are many questions which should be raised, after reading the disclaimer.

a) Legal status of tuned vehicle, as it regards to Federal. State and Local regulations, including, but not limited to emissions, safety, etc. My own opinion is that once you step outside the perimeter that Porsche got for its permit to build/market/sell the car, you are likely breaking the law. I expect that a number of Federal Agencies might be involved in supplying said permit. If you went and said 'I tuned the car', even if it passes emissions, it doesn't necessarily fulfill the original car's specifications. Can the brakes stop it? Will the damned thing overheat and start spewing parts at innocent bystanders? Even assuming that the answers are satisfactory for the VR tune, how does the National Transportation Safety Board know that VR producing an additional 70 HP is ok and another one, producing 250 additional HP is also safe?

b) Insurability. It goes hand in hand with the previous considerations. Would any insurance touch a tuned car with a 10 ft pole? With no specs, no history, no data? Racing insurance is probably a different story. It is probably expensive enough to cover risks approached with a much more generic and limited data set (racing accidents).

c) A very cleverly worded sentence: 'I take responsibility to ensure that any modifications or upgrades that I have done to my vehicle conform to all applicable laws and regulations for road use, especially pertaining to safety and emissions.' You can take all the responsibility you want, but you CANNOT ensure vehicle conformance. Only corporate entities (like Porsche) have this kind of money.

Many years ago, a friend tried to bring an imported BMW 540 to US specs. He had a lot of diligent work done in Germany, including door reinforcement (Europe was not up to snuff for side collisions). When he went with all the paperwork to the appropriate California office, they asked him for a certificate for the reinforcements. He produced an affidavit from the engineering outfit that designed and built the reinforcement. It wasn't good enough. They wanted a materials certificate, for the specific batch, that produced the billet that made the reinforcement!

So, buyer beware... I know that in the nineties, a lot of oversight on modifications was relaxed and that's long time ago. I am not sure though that if there is financial incentive (i.e. the insurance being called to cover serious damages where a modified vehicle is involved) whether such questions/considerations may come to the fore.
 

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The tunes are conservative, far less than what Ehresmann achieves with the 2.0 motor.
Hi Greg, I assume this is reference to Ehresmann’s stage 2 gains of +99hp/96 lb-ft (for the 2.0)? Please bear in mind though this isn’t achieved from purely an ECU tune. Their stage 2 package includes hardware changes - namely a hi-flow (200 cell) cat downpipe and BMC air filter. Ehresmann’s ECU only tune (stage 1) yields a more conservative +59hp/52 Ib-ft.:)
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I think that there are many questions which should be raised, after reading the disclaimer.

a) Legal status of tuned vehicle, as it regards to Federal. State and Local regulations, including, but not limited to emissions, safety, etc. My own opinion is that once you step outside the perimeter that Porsche got for its permit to build/market/sell the car, you are likely breaking the law. I expect that a number of Federal Agencies might be involved in supplying said permit. If you went and said 'I tuned the car', even if it passes emissions, it doesn't necessarily fulfill the original car's specifications. Can the brakes stop it? Will the damned thing overheat and start spewing parts at innocent bystanders? Even assuming that the answers are satisfactory for the VR tune, how does the National Transportation Safety Board know that VR producing an additional 70 HP is ok and another one, producing 250 additional HP is also safe?

b) Insurability. It goes hand in hand with the previous considerations. Would any insurance touch a tuned car with a 10 ft pole? With no specs, no history, no data? Racing insurance is probably a different story. It is probably expensive enough to cover risks approached with a much more generic and limited data set (racing accidents).

c) A very cleverly worded sentence: 'I take responsibility to ensure that any modifications or upgrades that I have done to my vehicle conform to all applicable laws and regulations for road use, especially pertaining to safety and emissions.' You can take all the responsibility you want, but you CANNOT ensure vehicle conformance. Only corporate entities (like Porsche) have this kind of money.

Many years ago, a friend tried to bring an imported BMW 540 to US specs. He had a lot of diligent work done in Germany, including door reinforcement (Europe was not up to snuff for side collisions). When he went with all the paperwork to the appropriate California office, they asked him for a certificate for the reinforcements. He produced an affidavit from the engineering outfit that designed and built the reinforcement. It wasn't good enough. They wanted a materials certificate, for the specific batch, that produced the billet that made the reinforcement!

So, buyer beware... I know that in the nineties, a lot of oversight on modifications was relaxed and that's long time ago. I am not sure though that if there is financial incentive (i.e. the insurance being called to cover serious damages where a modified vehicle is involved) whether such questions/considerations may come to the fore.

I think you guys are in the wrong business: every 718 in existence is still possibly under warranty. This is a tuning forum, ANY TUNING could void the manufacturers warranty.

Seriously, this is a forum and if you are this concerned about liability, then maybe shut the forum down? Why do you have a tuning forum in the first place???

In my day job, I'm an airline pilot. We spend our days managing and evaluating liability. So, that's what I am: a liability / safety manager. It's that simple; if you cannot manage the liability then obviate your liability.

Cheers,

Greg

P.S. just delete this thread. Sheesh!
 
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