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2018 718 Cayman GTS
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Aesthetics aside,

What X pipe have some of you settled for on your 718 and why? people have been replacing these on their mid-engine Porsche's since the 987. Although I'm finding out that not all X pipe's are created equal, cast or welded stainless, and that some are actually reducing performance over the factory H pipe due to not flowing as well. Vendors please chime in as well if you have dyno sheets or otherwise.
 
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To start it seems you’ve seen information from another manufacturer that is known to make false claims and have even made up percentages of gain or loss. I can guarantee you no flow data exists which can substantiate any claims of power loss from replacing the rear X-pipe. It's like a power claim with no dyno chart for verification. Is it a coincidence that no dyno charts are publicly available to back up any claims of added power from either a manufacturer or verified independent third party? That said - it's easy to inflate results by cherry picking the worst performing stock run with a heat soaked car and compare it to the run of a modification that shows the best results to inflate the delta. Conducting business in these unprofessional way spreads false information and is a detriment to the industry and enthusiasts alike. The amount of time I’ve had to invest in addressing this situation has come at a significant cost in preparing more media, posts, and information for all of you. We believe in doing better by being better. We continuously make improvements and if we can improve our products - we do. Next to me are two engineers working on designs for castings for several products. We evaluate and optimize fitment and flow digitally first when possible.

We test our X-pipes and other components when possible with computational fluid dynamics (CFD) to visually simulate flow for steady state and pulsing exhaust scenarios with the objective of increasing / speeding up exhaust flow. This helps us understand the effectiveness or areas that need improvement in the initial design phase. As you can see from the steady state simulation, the red arrows show an increase in velocity. We don’t necessarily use this to prove a set point of performance, but test and verify changes and improvements as we work towards a physical component be it 3d printed, cast, or hand crafted. It’s not always about power gains, but sometimes we favor coaxing out a more refined sound. It’s a balancing act but we like a challenge.





Our cast X-pipe allows for a smooth transition into and out of the X section. Our design increases velocity upon exit and we have done testing. The casting of the interior is also smooth, without any protrusions from welds. A proper back purged weld with full penetration will most likely have some material on the backside in the X. Welded x-pipes can fail due to stresses and possibly lack of proper welding techniques - we’ve made several customers out of offering more durable replacements for their failed tip sections from other manufacturers. We've made a very conscious decision to offer the most durable X solution possible with our customers in mind. We've also been using these X-sections with great success on our full line of Boxster / Cayman exhaust systems which are proven to perform, and warrantied to do so on the track for LIFE. We’ve got racers setting records and pushing the limits without failures. There is a reason we have the honor of offering SPEC Cayman legal exhaust upgrades, are PCA Club Racing sponsors - and others are not. :)

One con to the cast x-pipe is that it is slightly heavier than a standard X, but durability comes at a cost of around an extra pound vs a welded X.



In summary and to be realistic, the effects of any x-pipe would be small to where any power gains or losses would not be apparently felt - 1-3 whp at most - which itself could be disputed as variations from conditions on the dyno and from the car. You can expect a smoother exhaust note and as you may have seen we have a wealth of tip options with customization available to have your tips built exactly how you see fit - and at a better price than others.

As always if you have any questions, comments, or concerns - we're here to help.

-Mike Spock
Marketing Manager
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Mike - I appreciate you taking the time to join in and write that up. However I can't agree with some points you've made. Porsche's are performance orientated cars, I feel a majority agree when I say it is about the power gains. I asked around and was pointed to a website with a dyno chart pasted on it (see below). With how much R&D it seems went into the Soul X pipe, I can't imagine your engineers didn't strap a car (987, 981, 718 or otherwise) onto a dyno and record your findings. I for one would love to have more choices to shop for and appreciate all data points that a manufacturer presents to us, the enthusiast (and customer), to make a solid decision.

 

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I am by no means an exhaust expert or engineer, but I find it hard to believe that small rear x-pipe which is already free flowing (just pipes and tips, no muffler, resonator, cat, etc in the way) would produce any gains or losses by going with an aftermarket unit. There is no material change in flow restriction thus no change in power. The x-pipe and tips should be seen as a cosmetic improvement and nothing more.

I think Mike is spot on in what he said. I have seen their competitors marketing and thought it was strange how they went out of their way to put down their competition.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I am by no means an exhaust expert or engineer, but I find it hard to believe that small rear x-pipe which is already free flowing (just pipes and tips, no muffler, resonator, cat, etc in the way) would produce any gains or losses by going with an aftermarket unit. There is no material change in flow restriction thus no change in power. The x-pipe and tips should be seen as a cosmetic improvement and nothing more.

I think Mike is spot on in what he said. I have seen their competitors marketing and thought it was strange how they went out of their way to put down their competition.
False, performance gains have been documented since the 987 for these types of aftermarket exhaust pieces. BC Velocity was one of the first companies that designed a replacement for the OEM T/H pipes. Seen here. Your own opinions are more than welcome since this is a public forum but I'd at least try to set a proper narrative as to not dissuade people from installing this type of exhaust mod. Like a high flowing aftermarket air filter, there are gains to be had although minuscule.

In regards to Fabspeed's data, it is a business and it can get cut throat at times (you should see the R35 GT-R community) but perhaps they were trying to prove that their product is superior. Either way, the only thing I found strange was that other companies who offer the same product aren't posting dyno results for a $400-450 dollar exhaust modification.
 

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I am by no means an exhaust expert or engineer, but I find it hard to believe that small rear x-pipe which is already free flowing (just pipes and tips, no muffler, resonator, cat, etc in the way) would produce any gains or losses by going with an aftermarket unit. There is no material change in flow restriction thus no change in power. The x-pipe and tips should be seen as a cosmetic improvement and nothing more.

I think Mike is spot on in what he said. I have seen their competitors marketing and thought it was strange how they went out of their way to put down their competition.
I'm not an exhaust expert either. However, I've worked on and built enough vehicles in my day to know that you want your exhaust to not be restricted, which why exhaust upgrades are one of the top three most common upgrades done for horsepower(HP) gain. Any bottle neck in the flow of exhaust gasses can have an effect on performance. I wouldn't expect a massive gain in HP with switching tips out, but it's possible if the tips allow for the exhaust to flow easier then the HP goes up.

The animations below are representations of what you want, and what you don't want. Left is the stock H pipe where the exhaust collides (no likey), and right is an X-pipe where the exhaust flows(me likey). I stole these from the site that @gcX posted. I can't say for sure if Soul's x-pipe flows like the one on the right, but with it being cast, and not two different pieces welded I have my doubts. Only way to know is to get one, and cut it open. I have a feeling that if they took a picture looking into the position where the tip connects to the exhaust we would be able to see out the other side with minimal material being able to direct the flow of the exhaust. Which means that the exhaust flows like the first illustration. The tip on the right has a very distinct route for the exhaust to flow.
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Not sure I see much difference in the right side of the Fabspeed airflow diagram and the Soul diagram, except that it looks like the Fabspeed weld makes the tight bend exaggerated where the parallel flows are side by side. Is that a good thing or a bad (or even matter one way or the other)? Does welding two pipes together distort the conjoined interiors of the pipes? It would be cool if some consumer or other organization did a cross-section as @xhyphenx suggests.
 
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I’m all for adding power but we are talking about minuscule amounts here. +/- 3hp on a 300+hp car is completely imperceptible. Perhaps if you have a fully built race car then I guess every drop counts. But for the average person, if you are adding these exhaust tips mainly for power gains then you will likely be disappointed.

Please don’t take my opinion as knocking this product as that is not what I mean. I love the look of the tips and would absolutely consider getting this one day. But it will be for cosmetic enhancement and not power reasons.
 

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I’m all for adding power but we are talking about minuscule amounts here. +/- 3hp on a 300+hp car is completely imperceptible. Perhaps if you have a fully built race car then I guess every drop counts. But for the average person, if you are adding these exhaust tips mainly for power gains then you will likely be disappointed.

Please don’t take my opinion as knocking this product as that is not what I mean. I love the look of the tips and would absolutely consider getting this one day. But it will be for cosmetic enhancement and not power reasons.
Agreed that we are debating about a minimal gain. :D
 
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Exhaust tips could make a very minor change in power as well as a small change in sound, but I bet either would be hard to tell apart without a direct comparison.
In motorcycles (at least) a free flowing exhaust gives more power at high rpm and reduced torque at low and mid-range rpm. That's why I left some back pressure in the Moto Guzzi exhaust—I liked the torque that I could use all the time rather than the power that when used quickly took me into illegal territory.
 
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If I'm reading that chart correctly, Fabspeed is claiming they are running their aftermarket Maxflo exhaust system with X-pipe, if so it's not an apples to apples comparison. We don't have a dyno chart as like I mentioned the difference is so minute that 1-3 whp of gains or losses could be attributed to external factors like temperatures, location of fans, heat soak, humidity, and more. We're not presented with all the information that a Dynojet normally provides (temps, times, etc.) so we don't know what the conditions were. We also don't know how many runs were done to get those numbers.

Would Porsche engineers leave 5 whp+ power on the table from a simple tip section? If anything they would likely incorporate it into PSE only or offer a superior version as part an upgraded package like they have for other cars. As mentioned we have done testing and have seen variations from on average 1-3 whp - not enough for us to market them as a power adder.

We consciously chose to offer the most durable product and a cast X makes the most sense. Unlike other brands in our market, we've warrantied for street and track use from day one. We intend for our components to be abused and we want you to shoot for faster times and better positions without having to worry about potential failures. Out of respect to other manufacturers, we choose not to post photos showing failure of non-cast X-pipes from dedicated track use.

As someone pointed out, the owner of Fabspeed has a (public) vendetta against us. Most of the employees past and present are more professional - a good number of which are personal friends and current colleagues. I worked there for years, I know how the sausage is made -and I'm now happy at SOUL. I'm proud to be a part of a company that was founded to do better for the community by focusing on working with customers and competition alike. I'm always happy to provide as much information as I can, but I'd prefer to avoid discussing them further - I've been trying to get off their negativity train but it keeps showing back up at the station so to say - it's depressing.

All that said, I am working with a reputable shop near us to get data and we'll have more numbers as requested. I appreciate everyone being passionate and looking into data and generating discussion.

Cheers!

-Mike
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Mike, once again, I wholeheartedly appreciate your participation in this thread, as well as transparency. I foolishly looked over the "Maxflow" detail on their dyno sheet, that makes much more sense and thanks for pointing that out. Looking forward to some more data points with the Soul X pipe.
 

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As always if you have any questions, comments, or concerns - we're here to help.

-Mike Spock
Marketing Manager
Great post, Mike.

I love my Xpipe from Soul. It sounds better than the original and I’m still using my Laguna tips since October. Tracking your car doesn’t void the warranty like it does with some companies. Why is that?

Soul has been fantastic to deal with; other companies ignored me. The pipes slipped due to a bolt loosening, so they should be up a bit, but you get the idea. No issues with full throttle past the sound booth at Laguna Seca.


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@gcX and @Soul Performance Products , please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but the primary reason Porsche uses a collector assembly between the mufflers and the tailpipes -- and the reason an X-pipe is a feasible replacement that, if engineered properly, improves flow slightly -- is because the exhaust is an unequal-length design.

Either way, the potential gains are minimal and negligible -- even on the 987 -- unless a full aftermarket solution is installed. The bottleneck in the OEM exhaust is not the collector assembly, so why would the X-pipe improve that?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Hey Mike, I believe you answered your own question, the X-pipe is more flow efficient compared to the stock T that Porsche uses. With an X-pipe, the exhaust equalization is smoother and without harsh direction changes. I believe the manufacturers chose these more restrictive pipes to adjust the sound note that comes from a factory exhaust. Perhaps to remove certain frequencies that may be bothersome to the ear? I'm not a sound engineer but that is my guess. Either way, for our specific application (4 pot turbo), Porsche could have easily went with a single pipe exhaust all the way through, without splitting off with the y and creating this dual muffler setup that merges back into effectively 1 outlet. A single pipe is much more efficient for any turbo application. Why they didn't? I have no idea, we can only speculate. Most likely tone. This is probably why some companies have developed single pipe systems for our platform, there are gains to be had.

@gcX and @Soul Performance Products , please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but the primary reason Porsche uses a collector assembly between the mufflers and the tailpipes -- and the reason an X-pipe is a feasible replacement that, if engineered properly, improves flow slightly -- is because the exhaust is an unequal-length design.

Either way, the potential gains are minimal and negligible -- even on the 987 -- unless a full aftermarket solution is installed. The bottleneck in the OEM exhaust is not the collector assembly, so why would the X-pipe improve that?
 

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So… is it kinda a obvious that going to an x-pipe setup vs the OEM H (or T, depending on how it looks to you) design, just makes sense from an optimal performance standpoint?

I don’t see an answer to this question really coming through from all the threads… cosmetically I don’t have an urge to go from the single exhaust to a dual pipe look, but since it appears going to an x-pipe also means you lose the single pipe, I guess that’s part of the decision.

Is it better for the long term life of the car to make this modification?

Thank you!
 

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To start it seems you’ve seen information from another manufacturer that is known to make false claims and have even made up percentages of gain or loss. I can guarantee you no flow data exists which can substantiate any claims of power loss from replacing the rear X-pipe. It's like a power claim with no dyno chart for verification. Is it a coincidence that no dyno charts are publicly available to back up any claims of added power from either a manufacturer or verified independent third party? That said - it's easy to inflate results by cherry picking the worst performing stock run with a heat soaked car and compare it to the run of a modification that shows the best results to inflate the delta. Conducting business in these unprofessional way spreads false information and is a detriment to the industry and enthusiasts alike. The amount of time I’ve had to invest in addressing this situation has come at a significant cost in preparing more media, posts, and information for all of you. We believe in doing better by being better. We continuously make improvements and if we can improve our products - we do. Next to me are two engineers working on designs for castings for several products. We evaluate and optimize fitment and flow digitally first when possible.

We test our X-pipes and other components when possible with computational fluid dynamics (CFD) to visually simulate flow for steady state and pulsing exhaust scenarios with the objective of increasing / speeding up exhaust flow. This helps us understand the effectiveness or areas that need improvement in the initial design phase. As you can see from the steady state simulation, the red arrows show an increase in velocity. We don’t necessarily use this to prove a set point of performance, but test and verify changes and improvements as we work towards a physical component be it 3d printed, cast, or hand crafted. It’s not always about power gains, but sometimes we favor coaxing out a more refined sound. It’s a balancing act but we like a challenge.





Our cast X-pipe allows for a smooth transition into and out of the X section. Our design increases velocity upon exit and we have done testing. The casting of the interior is also smooth, without any protrusions from welds. A proper back purged weld with full penetration will most likely have some material on the backside in the X. Welded x-pipes can fail due to stresses and possibly lack of proper welding techniques - we’ve made several customers out of offering more durable replacements for their failed tip sections from other manufacturers. We've made a very conscious decision to offer the most durable X solution possible with our customers in mind. We've also been using these X-sections with great success on our full line of Boxster / Cayman exhaust systems which are proven to perform, and warrantied to do so on the track for LIFE. We’ve got racers setting records and pushing the limits without failures. There is a reason we have the honor of offering SPEC Cayman legal exhaust upgrades, are PCA Club Racing sponsors - and others are not. :)

One con to the cast x-pipe is that it is slightly heavier than a standard X, but durability comes at a cost of around an extra pound vs a welded X.



In summary and to be realistic, the effects of any x-pipe would be small to where any power gains or losses would not be apparently felt - 1-3 whp at most - which itself could be disputed as variations from conditions on the dyno and from the car. You can expect a smoother exhaust note and as you may have seen we have a wealth of tip options with customization available to have your tips built exactly how you see fit - and at a better price than others.

As always if you have any questions, comments, or concerns - we're here to help.

-Mike Spock
Marketing Manager
Do you have any comparison videos of stock pse vs x pipe please?
 
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