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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So here is a strange fact. In the Netherlands cars are taxed based on their official CO2 emmissions. The PDK 718 Cayman has lower emissions (officially) due to the longer gearing and the way it changes up earlier in normal driving.

The impact is such that in the Netherlands you end up paying extra for the manual gearbox. The extra “cost” of the manual gearbox is currently some 5264 thousand euro or the equivalent of some 6317 thousand dollar.

My Cayman GTS will be a PDK when it comes in February.
 

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So I would guess that there are not too many Dutch 718s with manual transmissions: correct?

There is a big push by technical organizations like the Society of Automotive Engineers ("SAE"......I'm a member) here in the USA to use more "real world data" to predict driving data (and thus, to predict fuel economy and emissions).

This "real" data would replace simulation data that is based on assumptions that may not be valid.

The latest SAE magazine has something about this on the cover.

Much of the simulation data ("non-real world") tends to imply things like the tax rules in your country, which may not really be true. I own a PDK 718 but I tend to drive it more like a manual trans most of the time. I bet a lot of us do.
 

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So here is a strange fact. In the Netherlands cars are taxed based on their official CO2 emmissions. The PDK 718 Cayman has lower emissions (officially) due to the longer gearing and the way it changes up earlier in normal driving.

The impact is such that in the Netherlands you end up paying extra for the manual gearbox. The extra “cost” of the manual gearbox is currently some 5264 thousand euro or the equivalent of some 6317 thousand dollar.

My Cayman GTS will be a PDK when it comes in February.

I had to check the comfigurator on porsche.nl and sure thing!
Thats just crazy!


Is there any difference in yearly taxes between manual and pdk?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Annual road tax is the same for both options.

Agree with the fact that real world emission measurements would probably change the picture somewhat.

And of course it is some 6 thousand dollars, not 6317 thousand. It’s bad enough already.
 

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It's not quite that bad here in Australia, but the tax relief on the PDK on a base Boxster (fuel consumption based) was about A$3500.

Because my left knee doesn't work that well any more (even post-surgery), the PDK was a no-brainer--despite having bought nothing but manual transmissions since 1970.
 

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Interesting!
Here in Sweden we dont have these extra taxes, yet.
In Denmark they have 80% higher taxes on cars and the result is that there is alot of realy old cars on the streets and mainly diesels.
The "new" thing in Europe is to ban diesels in the centre of the city if there is a need cause of high polution.
And in Sweden you can see that it has effected people even if we dont have that ban, there is Alot of diesels on the used market.
 

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Car tax (vehicle excise duty) calculation in the U.K was overhauled last year & now makes very little real sense. Previously the tax you paid was calculated purely on CO2 emissions & although that wasn't particularly fair as it totally ignored mileage as well as NOx, particulate matter etc, now it's just plain ridiculous. Since March 2017 only the first year fee is dependant on actual CO2 emissions & that fee can be as high as £2000 (Only zero CO2 emissions = zero fee). After that first year, electric vehicles pay £0 per year, alternative fuel vehicles pay £130 per year & all petrol or diesel cars pay the same flat fee of £140 per year & that's irrespective of whether they're hybrids or not (which is a bit of a blow for hybrid manufacturers). So you'd assume that the way to escape paying V.E.D is to buy a purely electric vehicle, right? Well possibly, but forget buying something like a Tesla to do so, because there's a catch & it's a big one. Every car with a retail or list price before any discounts that exceeds £40,000 at the time of first registration incurs an additional £310 per year after year one & for the next five years on top of any other fees. Applying the new rules to a Cayman PDK 2.5S will see first year fees of £500 (£800 for a manual due to the supposed higher emissions). After that first year & for the next five years both PDK & manual versions will pay the same £140 + £310 = £450.00 (because they are over the £40,000 list price). Then after the sixth year the VED would drop to £140.00. Complicated huh? The thing is, not only do you get penalised until year seven for buying a nice car over the £40,000 list price, even if it's very low emissions one, but further down the price scale there's now less incentive to buy a cleaner hybrid. After all something like a Golf GTI for example will incur only marginal extra tax in it's first year than a Toyota Prius (£60 difference) & exactly the same £140 tax per calendar year thereafter......... As a footnote & just to make things even more confusing, because my own PDK 2.5 was registered before March 2017 I pay a yearly VED of £210.00, irrespective of the age of the car. I therefore pay a massive £240.00 less than the owner of an identical car registered after March 2017, right up until their seventh year of ownership, after which the situation gets reversed & assuming I still owned mine I'd be paying £70.00 more than they would from that point on. :confused:
 

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I think any tax that is supposed to be for emissions should be done at the gas pump. It should be about actual use. It doesn't matter if you drive a Prius, a Porsche or a Ferrari. It depends on how much fuel you burn. So if you drive your Ferrari that gets 10 MPG 1000 miles a year you pollute less than the Prius driver who drives 15,000 miles in a year and gets 40 MPG ( or whatever they get).

Taxing cars on what they might possibly use is ridiculous.
 
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I think any tax that is supposed to be for emissions should be done at the gas pump. It should be about actual use. It doesn't matter if you drive a Prius, a Porsche or a Ferrari. It depends on how much fuel you burn. So if you drive your Ferrari that gets 10 MPG 1000 miles a year you pollute less than the Prius driver who drives 15,000 miles in a year and gets 40 MPG ( or whatever they get).

Taxing cars on what they might possibly use is ridiculous.
The idea of taxation at the pump is one that's been mooted for many years in the U.K & it's one I agree with in principle. However I'm not sure I'd trust any government not to simply use it as an excuse to raise even more revenue. We already pay a huge percentage of our fuel costs in tax which already accounts for somewhere in the region of 60-62% of the total price.
 

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The idea of taxation at the pump is one that's been mooted for many years in the U.K & it's one I agree with in principle. However I'm not sure I'd trust any government not to simply use it as an excuse to raise even more revenue. We already pay a huge percentage of our fuel costs in tax which already accounts for somewhere in the region of 60-62% of the total price.
Here in CT cars are taxed as property. So every year you get a tax bill for your car which is based on the blue book value of the car multiplied by the current mill rate (which right now is about 0.027 I think). Luckily the blue book values are always on the low end and don't take options into account. So for an 80,000 dollar 718 they might value it at 60,000 after the first year and you then would get a tax bill for $1,620.
 

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I suspect that the stupid rules re: motor vehicles and pollution is partly (at least!) caused by stupid government advisors and their politicians. Nobody yet (AFAIK) has worked out that in many countries (Australia is one), the pollution from burning dirty coal to produce electricity means that most electric cars pollute as much as IC cars.

Of course it doesn't help that our knowledge of pollutants changes as science advances.--Remember when diesels were "green"?--now they are being banned outright.

I remember when the prediction was for a coming ice age. Has global warming from cars actually saved the world?
 

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As mentioned earlier we have an annual property tax on cars in CT but that tax is not based on CO2/emissions or environmental grounds. It is just another way to apportion local taxes via property in addition to annual taxes on homes. The legislature frequently discusses getting rid of it but nobody can agree on how to make up the revenue difference so it just gets kicked down the road.

Sure the government sometimes uses taxes to influence behavior but more often than not, I think it is generally just trying to find the least objectionable way to raise revenue.

I just ordered a 718 with PDK. It is a somewhat bittersweet purchase for me. I am a fan of manuals but I have a number of other cars...all manuals, and decided I needed a PDK just for variety. Knowing that manuals are taxed higher in NL makes me want to get a manual just so I feel like I'm getting a bargain ;) ( not to mention that we pay a sizable premium for the PDK.)
 

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Having looked at the Porsche NL website I was immediately struck by just how expensive the 718 was there anyway & that's irrespective of which gearbox you choose. I doubt very much that I'd have equipped my car so highly if I lived in the Netherlands. When I replicated my own cars build I couldn't quite get my head around the price difference & it's also far more expensive than neighbouring Germany.

*****After the cookies from the NL, U.K & German sites had been implanted I stopped being allowed to do comparison builds, until after I cleared everything. I would therefore assume they're a little defensive regarding the subject.******
 

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Just to highlight the point in my earlier comment & I'm aware that standard specification varies from country to country so it's not strictly like for like, but taking a 718 Boxster S as an example with current exchange rates :-

UK list price £53,714.00. When converted to €60,852
US list price $69,800........When converted to €58,373
Germany €67,212.
Netherlands €89,000

A price difference of €30,627.... £27,034....$36,622 between cheapest & most expensive & that's before you get around to adding spec. I assume that in the Netherlands that as well as heavily punishing for increased emissions they also have to pay extortionate tax levels on new vehicles? It's the only way I can account for such a difference. Perhaps Jaap or someone else can shed further light on the subject?
 

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Not to argue that there are significant price differences between countries but some other factors to consider:

The European prices vs the US price include the VAT tax of about 20%, so pretax they aren't as great as may first appear. ( However, I do think the US models come with "better" base equipment so it is probably a pretty good deal...as are many things in the US.)

In the US, many states have a sales tax on cars. In CT it is 7.75% ( I think) for cars more expensive than $50K. This eats into the difference...not entirely but substantially.

However, the BIG difference between Germany and NL is surprising. For a trade block, I would have thought there was much less difference.

On the other hand, I'm still trying to figure out why I can get something shipped more easily from China than Canada when we have NAFTA. LOL.
 

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Not to argue that there are significant price differences between countries but some other factors to consider:

The European prices vs the US price include the VAT tax of about 20%, so pretax they aren't as great as may first appear. ( However, I do the the US models come with "better" base equipment so it is probably a pretty good deal...as are many things in the US.)

In the US, many states have a sales tax on cars. In CT it is 7.75% ( I think) for cars more expensive than $50K. This eats into the difference...not entirely but substantially.

However, the BIG difference between Germany and NL is surprising. For a trade block, I would have thought there was much less difference.

On the other hand, I'm still trying to figure out why I can get something shipped more easily from China than Canada when we have NAFTA. LOL.
It genuinely shocked me & as a result I did a little research. From what I can gather in addition to VAT they pay a further luxury tax in the Netherlands which applies both locally & to imports. The U.K appears (as far as I checked) to currently be the cheapest country in Europe to buy a Porsche with a combination of both high standard specification & low prices. It's also a little cheaper than the U.S dependant on spec (you have a couple of packages & should these fit the bill that would slightly alter the overall comparison). We also have a number of items fitted as standard (Connect +, Navigation module) that not everyone actually requires, as well as a Porsche driving experience thrown in with every car purchase (again not everyone might think that adds value, I do but...). However building my own car on the US site & then converting back to British pounds Sterling it worked out approximately £5000.00 ($6750.00) more expensive had I bought the same car in the in the U.S. by comparison to the U.K (+ we get the aforementioned driving experience thrown in).
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Correct, cars are expensive in the Netherlands. 21% VAT is included, plus a special car tax, which is based on the official CO2 emissions of the car in question. This special tax is what drives the price increase for the manual option.

If you import a car from elsewhere in Europe you still have to pay the special car tax. So though cars are always cheaper in Germany, the difference is taxed away in the Netherlands. You see this reflected in the Dutch cars, which are significantly less luxurious (on average) than in Germany.

My daily driver at the moment is a Mercedes G500. I imported that in the Netherlands as a returning expat, thus avoided (after a hellish amount of paperwork) the special car tax. Otherwise the car tax would have been just under 100,000 euros based on the admittedly somewhat silly emissions.

The same tax system pushes the cost of a new grey import Dodge Challenger Hellcat to some 200k euros, or about a quarter of a million dollars.

So a lot of small cars on the Dutch roads, plus soon a very expensive and very blue Cayman GTS PDK.
 

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Just to highlight the point in my earlier comment & I'm aware that standard specification varies from country to country so it's not strictly like for like, but taking a 718 Boxster S as an example with current exchange rates :-

UK list price £53,714.00. When converted to €60,852
US list price $69,800........When converted to €58,373
Germany €67,212.
Netherlands €89,000

A price difference of €30,627.... £27,034....$36,622 between cheapest & most expensive & that's before you get around to adding spec. I assume that in the Netherlands that as well as heavily punishing for increased emissions they also have to pay extortionate tax levels on new vehicles? It's the only way I can account for such a difference. Perhaps Jaap or someone else can shed further light on the subject?
This is pretty interesting! The differences between the countries are sometimes understandable, £€$2000-5000 is livable. But the Netherlands prices are beyond understanding.
 

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The UK car prices are awesome.

The cheapest possible Australian Boxster S (admittedly with a reasonably high base spec):
AUD 162,626 driveaway = 106,573 Euro

I was working in London for 9 months in 2013, and was annoyed that I hadn't planned to work for 12+ months instead. Because if I bought a Boxster there on arrival and owned and drove it for a minimum of 12 months, I would have qualified for the Personal Imports Scheme and been able to bring it back to Australia when I returned. Even considering the shipping and import taxes it would have been a financial win. Although then I would have a 981 rather than a 718 :)

I was always amazed by the quality of the cars on the street as I walked each day to work: from Bayswater, through Hyde Park, and then down to Chelsea and Westminster Hospital. Porsches and Ferraris just casually parked on the street collecting bird droppings...

Then on the other end of the spectrum I worked in Singapore for 6 months in 2012. That made me cherish my Aussie car prices.

Singapore Boxster S
SGD 336,588 = 211,145 Euro

And that doesn't even allow you to drive it on the road. You need to pay another 45,000 SGD to be allowed to drive it on the road for 10 years (then you need to pay again).
 

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wow I feel lucky! Washington state the annual license fee is $45. We do have a 8.3% sales tax upon purchase. About the same in Oregon except no sales tax.
 
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