So many variables that it is anything but black and white. There is enough low end torque, even in my NA engine, to break traction with the rear wheels while accelerating at a corner. The car needs grip to corner and grip to accelerate, and there is only a finite amount of grip available. I had several sets of Pirellis on my 981S and have Michelins on my 718 and they both would do it. Cold tires and dirty roads make it even easier.

I would like to hear from some autocrossers about their experiences.

 

Maybe you have PSM turned off which also controls ASM (Anti slip management)? I can break traction with it turned off, but difficult with it on.

By the way, that's quite rant lol

 

Most people who try these sport cars note that they are the least controllable production vehicles ever made. Oh wait.

 

I really lost on the tire lottery with the N certified Goodyear Eagles on mine.

 

Which one you got ?

 

Golfs are front-heavy front-wheel drive platform cars even in 4wd form. They understeer like mad, on lawyers’ orders, in order to keep the light rear-end from comin’round under various circumstances.

Human perception can be a funny thing.

The first time I drove one with much of the understeer dialed out of it, it was a real shock. The limits were a lot higher but those extended limits came at the expense of ”looseness.”

Every car architecture requires different driving styles when you get to the edges. You don’t drive a mid-engine car like a rear-engine car and you don’t drive a front-engine car like a rear-engine car. And EVs? LoL. Another different style when flogging them.

 

After owning 5 of these Boxter/Caymans, none of them expose the tires like the 718 S models, the torque is intense, especially after adding a tuner. I could not step on the gas hard off a light with out doing a mile long burnout. Don't get me wrong it was fun, but not that best for acceleration times. So I thought about it and I did some research and got rid of the Potenzas for Michelin Pilot Sports, the most expensive, lol. Very little burnout just pavement ripping acceleration. I guess once you reach a certain level of performance, every thing gets exposed for its weakness.

 

My car is 2017 and still running the original Goodyears. I am trying to locate replacements currrently. The Goodyears were OK at first, but they are terrible now. They are still a couple mm above the wear indicators, but not sure if it is an aging thing, or just the rubber quality is worse as you wear them more. I can break traction so easily now, even in higher gears up to 3rd. A small amount of lateral load and even a little torque (quarter throttle) and I can drift it through low-med speed corners like my go-kart. I don't remember it being anything like this when I got the car with 8000kms 2nd hand. I am putting it down to the tyres (I have a tune now, but I am not using anywhere near its capability to instigate these slides).

So I am currently shopping for some PS4S which should solve the issue.

 

Perspectives… if this happened to me, my first assumption would be that maybe the car was far superior to the driver, and I had some learning to do.

 

I doubt I was going over 25mph when this happened, and no, I didn't slam the brakes and then yank the wheel over. We're talking a simple right turn with a green light. And I remember distinctly how easily my R would have taken it.

I suppose I'll have to get a co-pilot to watch the G-meter for me and report back. I mean, maybe I AM that much better than I think and the car was moving at 50mph.....

 

Miles and years on tires?

 

All sports car will break the rear loose if you have enough power and you definitely have enough power. I was bummed I got the Michelins as well but I am actually surprised how good the Pirellis are. From your title of serious flaw, I can tell you the Michelins are not going to make that big a difference as to take away a serious flaw. The are only slightly better on a lap time but the Pirelli beats the Michelin in several places as well. Things get amplified here so much. Turbo motors will make your ears bleed and make you vomit. No one likes them. Anything but Michelins is garbage or terrible only there to protect the rim during shipping. Base radio causes convulsions and disgust. All of this has proven false. Here are some quick test results from Tire Rack where they compare the tires side by side and even a video if you prefer. They are so close.

here are some charts:

TireRack Test Overall Score - HIGHER SCORE IS BETTER

Wet Track Lap Time faster than the Michelin

Michelin slightly better on dry, but ties on Handling and Balance and the Bridgestone beats them both on cornering traction!

 

And the steering precision of the pirelli is better than the Michelin's
I am a Michelin fan for a long time but the PS4 and PS4s steering precision is actually a step back compared to the PSS .
I still prefer the Michelin especially it's a safer tire when it's cold , right after you start.

 

If you wanted to see truly bad tires, you should have seen my Mk7 Jetta GLI's Hankook all seasons. I got wheelspin in second gear with only 228hp/258lb-ft to the wheels and accidental lift-off oversteer in dry weather while going too fast on an on-ramp . So far my Cayman's Pirelli P Zeros are a godsend in comparison.

 

If you are comparing to a golf R, they are very different cars. AWD grip is huge... particularly at low speed where the engine can easily provide levels of torque that can overcome tyre grip. Your 718 has half as many driving wheels. Once the speed goes up, the dynamics of the chassis come into play, and chassis balance wil become dominant over absolute grip levels. This is where the 718 shines. With the chassis balance you can use the throttle to control the attitude of the car (under/over steer), the 718 will be much more rewarding drive and should be able to use the balance to carry higher corner speeds. But that is not to say that if driven aggressively, it will not slide around in a way that the Golf R just could not do. Some may see that as a flaw in the car. Most who own one would see that as its primary appeal as a sports car.

 

The G-meter isn't important. If you are accelerating or braking while cornering, the grip available for turning will be less than at speed, where presumably you will finish braking before turning (unless you are deliberately trail braking) and hold off on the throttle until corner exit. There are lots of YouTube videos of people hammering the throttle while turning and writing off their expensive cars.

 

Was this a road you are very familiar with? Was it recently repaved? Is the surface slick for some other reason? If you had tire slip going 25 mph, and not getting on the go pedal, than something is off. Find a good stretch of dry tarmac and try again. I have to work to get tire spin on my car on a corner but amazed at the grip when pushed. Sure from a stand still you can easily get slippage but on a straight start I am AMAZED that the car stays dead straight and just goes once grip is restored.

I have PS4S's on all my cars. I have been using the Michelins since my 1997 M3. Great Tires. I had one A6 with Pirellis' and found that they wore quicker and had less grip. I have a set of Pirelli snow tires on my M5 for winter and they are pretty good for a winter tire, sure I can feel the difference but that was the tire I could find for that car.

I doubt Porsche is going to use a tire that is that much different in characteristics than another but I guess maybe.....

Mike

 

I confess to having little patience with some of this discussion. So with that out of the way:
If you want a car which cannot break loose its rear end, drive one with more understeer, a car which plows like a, well, I'd say a plow except that I've never driven a plow. I have however had the rear tires on my base Cayman step sideways a bit on several occasions. (My DW in the passenger seat was not amused.) All involved punching the throttle aggressively in 1st gear and on a dubious road surface, wet or excessively rough, and once (surprisingly) uphill. From my experience neither the Cayman nor by extension the Boxster have a "serious flaw" in that department. In fact, the car handled and recovered more quickly than would any other car I've ever owned. Superb torque, PS4S tires, great balance, low polar moment of inertia. It's a good combination for the car to do exactly what it did.

 

I confess to having little patience with some of this discussion. So with that out of the way:
If you want a car which cannot break loose its rear end, drive one with more understeer, a car which plows like a, well, I'd say a plow except that I've never driven a plow. I have however had the rear tires on my base Cayman step sideways a bit on several occasions. (My DW in the passenger seat was not amused.) All involved punching the throttle aggressively in 1st gear and on a dubious road surface, wet or excessively rough, and once (surprisingly) uphill. From my experience neither the Cayman nor by extension the Boxster have a "serious flaw" in that department. In fact, they car handled and recovered more quickly than would any other car I've ever owned. Superb torque, PS4S tires, great balance, low polar moment of inertia. It's a good combination for the car to do exactly what it did.

Amen to your first sentence. Having driven at the PE day with all traction off on both the kicker plate and the ice Hill all I can say is this has the best handling car I am ever likely to experience. Iam no expert, only 1. 2 million miles driven so far. I get to drive all our family cars as I do the detailing and minor in between service work, Alfa Giulia QF 500bhp rwd, mini Cooper 150 bhp fwd, seat leon fr, 184 bhp, Hyundai i30n 275 bhp fwd, and the 718 is in a whole new league of grip and precision, even on the Yokohama that came fitted.... I really lost the tyre lottery and would crave Eagle F1 asymmetrics. I can make Boxsy step out, I can make all the fwd cars understeer, but I have this right foot that connects to my cerebrum and that intervenes

 

@Kor 446 it sounds a bit like trailing throttle oversteer (TTO) where you lift past the apex on your acceleration out of the corner. I have Pirellis on my car and on the track, I'm going around corners much faster than in your example (unless you were somehow able to exceed 70 mph in that short distance). On one 130 degree corner I get around at 40-45 mph without any discernible slip (which in this sport means I'm going too slow). TTO, or the opposite (too much acceleration) are the only things that makes sense to me.

 

It can sometimes take a little while to get familiar with driving a rear wheel drive car if you’re new to them.

 

Yeah, the turbo engines sound cruddy. OTOH, the low end torque is.......

Oh, wait, this isn't about that. No dicking around with anything subjective. It's something that's black and white.

I'm hoping I've drawn the wrong conclusion and with apologies for this rant open to being educated. But if I'm correct, the vast majority of us have a right to be angry.

That said, here's my rant:

I haven't had the chance to really push the car. But sure, I'd make turns at intersections a little aggressively just to enjoy some G forces. And I was getting the sense my GTS' back-end was breaking loose ever so slightly. Seriously, I'm talking moving at way under the speed limit.......

Pushing the car a bit harder today, that "sense" became a conviction--Went slightly harder around that corner and the back-end DID break loose. Nothing radical, probably less than a foot.

WTF!!!! I sincerely doubt it is a function of the car's engineering. Actually, it had better be something else, like maybe the tires? At least it better be, or my anger will become "who wants to buy my slightly used car"?

Coincidentally, I had an Mk7 Golf R that came with Pirelli's (not sure but think they were the same). It slid around fairly readily while auto-crossing. "Fortunately" I blew one of the tires out giving me the excuse to put PS 4S's on the car. The car's limits increased exponentially. And if my butt-dyno-memory is accurate, that R would have stuck if I'd been driving it today.

How DARE Porsche saddle me/us with tires that are so inferior I would have trouble keeping up with a freakin' Golf.

I was resigned to getting Pirelli's on my car hoping to be pleasantly surprised with the Michelin's. Of course, I lost the Zurrenhausen tire lottery, but consoled myself figuring it'd be OK, that they'd be Porsche spec N1's and similar to the PS4S'.

So now, in order to get the most out of my $100,000 car I'm stuck spending $1500 on tires? Maybe I should have left it at hanks but no thanks Porsche .

Seriously suggest you then consider to trade the 718 back for a Golf and then be done with it
There is no comparison to note here, you are talking about a supped up Golf and a Porsche, hands down which one I would choose all day long, and it's not the Golf.

 

I’m actually really liking… my Goodyear Eagle F1 tires.

Good luck OP, hope you get it sorted.

 

I’m actually really liking… my Goodyear Eagle F1 tires.

Yep, we had them on a couple of family cars. I am a big fan of them

 

My Pirellis didn't feel great from new but they were set at 35 PSI front and rear. They are much better at 32 PSI or even 1-2 PSI less than that depending on conditions.

I will probably swap to Michelin PS4S when I have some more wear out of them.

 

Think mine are at 32 Mark and 35 sounds a little high tbh but not overly

 

I haven't had the chance to really push the car. But sure, I'd make turns at intersections a little aggressively just to enjoy some G forces. And I was getting the sense my GTS' back-end was breaking loose ever so slightly. Seriously, I'm talking moving at way under the speed limit.......

Pushing the car a bit harder today, that "sense" became a conviction--Went slightly harder around that corner and the back-end DID break loose. Nothing radical, probably less than a foot.

WTF!!!! I sincerely doubt it is a function of the car's engineering. Actually, it had better be something else, like maybe the tires? At least it better be, or my anger will become "who wants to buy my slightly used car"?

Coincidentally, I had an Mk7 Golf R that came with Pirelli's (not sure but think they were the same). It slid around fairly readily while auto-crossing. "Fortunately" I blew one of the tires out giving me the excuse to put PS 4S's on the car. The car's limits increased exponentially. And if my butt-dyno-memory is accurate, that R would have stuck if I'd been driving it today.

How DARE Porsche saddle me/us with tires that are so inferior I would have trouble keeping up with a freakin' Golf.

I was resigned to getting Pirelli's on my car hoping to be pleasantly surprised with the Michelin's. Of course, I lost the Zurrenhausen tire lottery, but consoled myself figuring it'd be OK, that they'd be Porsche spec N1's and similar to the PS4S'.

So now, in order to get the most out of my $100,000 car I'm stuck spending $1500 on tires? Maybe I should have left it at hanks but no thanks Porsche .

Exactly how many miles have you done in your car? You do know that fresh tyres are not at all grippy, right?
FWIW - no tyre will grip if you put a sudden load into it, or out of it, for that matter, in my experience. I am pretty confident I could get practically any car a bit sideways at 25-30 mph - if you grab a fistful of lock and smash the throttle, then get a bit worried and get straight off the throttle, it will usually get interesting. I am not suggesting that is what you are doing, but unless there is some enormous conspiracy that's been running for years between every Boxster and Cayman owner, that means that you never knew they slide around all over the place, then I would suggest it is your driving style that may need some correction, not your tyres. Save the $1500 on PS4s and get some tuition on a track - if you were already sliding an R around, then it sounds like you could do with some practise with your 'transitioning', and changing car is not going to fix that for you. You'll thank me for it, I promise. FYI, I have PPZs on my GTS 4.0.

 

Yeah, the turbo engines sound cruddy. OTOH, the low end torque is.......

Oh, wait, this isn't about that. No dicking around with anything subjective. It's something that's black and white.

I'm hoping I've drawn the wrong conclusion and with apologies for this rant open to being educated. But if I'm correct, the vast majority of us have a right to be angry.

That said, here's my rant:

I haven't had the chance to really push the car. But sure, I'd make turns at intersections a little aggressively just to enjoy some G forces. And I was getting the sense my GTS' back-end was breaking loose ever so slightly. Seriously, I'm talking moving at way under the speed limit.......

Pushing the car a bit harder today, that "sense" became a conviction--Went slightly harder around that corner and the back-end DID break loose. Nothing radical, probably less than a foot.

WTF!!!! I sincerely doubt it is a function of the car's engineering. Actually, it had better be something else, like maybe the tires? At least it better be, or my anger will become "who wants to buy my slightly used car"?

Coincidentally, I had an Mk7 Golf R that came with Pirelli's (not sure but think they were the same). It slid around fairly readily while auto-crossing. "Fortunately" I blew one of the tires out giving me the excuse to put PS 4S's on the car. The car's limits increased exponentially. And if my butt-dyno-memory is accurate, that R would have stuck if I'd been driving it today.

How DARE Porsche saddle me/us with tires that are so inferior I would have trouble keeping up with a freakin' Golf.

I was resigned to getting Pirelli's on my car hoping to be pleasantly surprised with the Michelin's. Of course, I lost the Zurrenhausen tire lottery, but consoled myself figuring it'd be OK, that they'd be Porsche spec N1's and similar to the PS4S'.

So now, in order to get the most out of my $100,000 car I'm stuck spending $1500 on tires? Maybe I should have left it at hanks but no thanks Porsche .

Is this a new car with new tires? I can tell you if this is not the case you may have great tread on the tires may even look new but I’d check production date of tires. It may be the issue. My Gts was 200 miles new and still on the lot as a demo but was two years old and did the same thing. I put the new f1s (I think they are) on it and it stuck to the road again. People forget about the age factor. We have Lambos that are barely driven come in our shop with the original 5 year old tires and they will lose it in a corner way to easy at slow speeds… I could tell you storys.

 

Its very likely my CGTS will be built with Pirelli tires - I've know other brands that use Pirelli Zero (summer and all -season) as OEM; pretty much know that they wear out quickly

most everyone replaces with other makes / models and have better results

I anticipate probably not getting much tire life and change them out with other choices

 

The Pirellis are not a serious flaw, the Michelins are probably a little better but were talking 2% difference and only in some situations. There is a lot of bad information out there. Most of it is not on purpose, just people not thinking about it. I had a guy with an M2 tell me his Michelin 4S were 100 times better than his PSS that came on his car. How he put them on the car and it was transformed. He was telling everyone that would hear this. He replaced a 5 year old set of worn PSS and OF COURSE the brand new PSS would feel great. I on the other hand had two sets of brand new 4S on a second pair of wheels and brand new PSS on my car and the difference was miniscule if you actually compare them side by side, both new. The 4S had a little more dry traction but also felt a little softer on turn in than the PSS side by side, new. But everyone is going around saying the 4S cures Polio and and cancer. The same thing happens with shock absorbers. Guys buy a used car with worn factory shocks, then switch to Monroes and bash the OEM shocks saying how terrible they are and how much better the Monroes are than Sachs. So yes, I would've preferred my car came with Michelins because they have always been good to me but the Pirellis on my 718 are excellent and not a "serious" flaw on the car. Serious flaws, maybe the e parking brake, rattles in the door and Porsche antics and availability, but not the the Pirellis. I don't expect you to believe me just google youtube. Idiots in cars crashing BMWs, Vettes, Lambos, Audis all spinning out and crashing..guess what, the majority of these crashing dudes are running Michelin PSS and 4S.

 

A number of folks have pointed to tire pressure and that is also a good explanation for “squirrelly” handling.

Door sill pressure is full-load max-autobahn-speed pressure.
Owners manual partial-load comfort pressure will provide the best grip of all four factory-(lawyer-)approved tire pressures.