[HooosierDaddy]

In an effort to clean up the other thread on here, I'm starting a new one that directly relates to the topic of No Lift Shifting on the GT3 and if the 718 or 911 offer the same features.

Mods or Admin, if you could move the related posts (sorry, I know it's asking a lot) to this thread? I feel the other thread has gone off the rails. Not intentionally or in a bad way, but it's way off base for what the thread is intended. What Did You Do To Your Porsche 718 Boxster/Cayman Today?

 

[HooosierDaddy]

Reference videos from other thread

 

[MikePhDPE]

I find in my BS that on the street i rarely use 3rd or 5th. I typically shift 1-2-4-6 on the street.

 

[HooosierDaddy]

I find in my BS that on the street i rarely use 3rd or 5th. I typically shift 1-2-4-6 on the street.

I can see that... at the top of 2nd gear and in most urban areas, you'd be close to if not over the legal speed limit and going to high gears for a cruising RPM.

 

[Barryng]

Since I get off on agressive throttle responses and acceleration, I found I need to maintain over 2,500 RPM (more like 3,000) to really enjoy the 300 horses packed away behind my seat. That certainly does not mean I burn rubber or go for full throttle acceleration as the former never happens and the latter very rarely. I just like to feel a strong response when I want to accelerate. It also means that city driving below 30-35 MPH is third gear and I am rarely in fifth unless I am steady state above 45-50 MPH. 6th only happens at sustained high speeds like on an Interstate. Compared to my BMW Z3 & Z4s, I am typically in one lower gear for the same condition and that might be because they all had that normally aspirated in line six even though the were rated at somewhat less Hp. I guess I could drive more economically by downshifting, and that does happen, but the results from applying throttle are much more satisfying and instantaneous from a higher RPM and I tend to think that is due to the **** turbo lag, albeit minimal but still annoying noticeable.

 

[GTS18BGTS]

I basically live in 2nd and 3rd gear on local roads between 30 and 50+mph. On the highway, it's 4th and 5th. Even in my 350Z I rarely, if ever drive in 6th. I think I have had the Porsche in 6th a few times just to do it, but not as a regular thing. The speeds are usually in the mid 70s to low 80s on the PA Turnpike. Now I haven't had the car on any journey longer than an hour, so who knows?

 

[jimmuller]

All this talk about acceleration preferences. If I "experienced" the kick of loud-pedal-to-the-floor in 90% of my driving I'd end up repairing the nose of my car over and over again. I don't want to have to do that at all. Also I'd end up paying for repairing the tail of other people's cars. I'd also probably pick up speeding tickets. The point is, it really depends on the roads and local traffic conditions.

 

[AVM]

CuprLeon referenced the below thread regarding the no-lift-shift in non-GT3 MT variants (e.g., 718 MT with rev-matching active). There was one post in that thread by a GTS owner who indicated it worked in a ‘seamless’ manner. Supportive, but hardly definitive.

Flat shifting a GTS (or non GT3)

At any rate, I had a moment and went back to above-referenced thread to more thoroughly review. Another member made the following post which I felt seemed a reasonable and safe to test.

“Whether or not the 718 has the described GT3 "flat shift" functionality, you're not going to over-rev the engine. On anything other than a forced, incorrect downshift, the ECU will rev-limit the engine.

Seems like it would be easy enough to test... 3rd or 4th gear, plenty of throttle, maybe 5K RPM, and just momentarily dip the clutch without doing anything with the shift lever. If the rev's drop, you have the functionality. If they climb, you don't. The functionality seems to be triggered by the clutch press, not moving the shifter, so this test should let you know.”

Any of our 718 MT owners willing to throw vehicle into Sport performance mode (activate rev-matching) and give the above ‘test’ a try?

AVM

 

[CupraLeon]

CuprLeon referenced the below thread regarding the no-lift-shift in non-GT3 MT variants (e.g., 718 MT with rev-matching active). There was one post in that thread by a GTS owner who indicated it worked in a ‘seamless’ manner. Supportive, but hardly definitive.

Flat shifting a GTS (or non GT3)

At any rate, I had a moment and went back to above-referenced thread to more thoroughly review. Another member made the following post which I felt seemed a reasonable and safe to test.

“Whether or not the 718 has the described GT3 "flat shift" functionality, you're not going to over-rev the engine. On anything other than a forced, incorrect downshift, the ECU will rev-limit the engine.

Seems like it would be easy enough to test... 3rd or 4th gear, plenty of throttle, maybe 5K RPM, and just momentarily dip the clutch without doing anything with the shift lever. If the rev's drop, you have the functionality. If they climb, you don't. The functionality seems to be triggered by the clutch press, not moving the shifter, so this test should let you know.”

Any of our 718 MT owners willing to throw vehicle into Sport performance mode (activate rev-matching) and give the above ‘test’ a try?

AVM

I did a test with only 50% load on the throttle,about 4000 rpm that was a no go, the revs went up. I think I was doing it wrong ,what I understand now from the post by 85GOLD (in the link provided by AVM in the above post) is that it only works with a higher load on throttle about 98-100% . When the weather gets better over here I will go for the full load test. Following video is an added no lift shift "tune" on a golf R by APR, they also mention it only works with minimum 98% throttle input.

 

[AVM]

I did a test with only 50% load on the throttle,about 4000 rpm that was a no go, the revs went up. I think I was doing it wrong ,what I understand now from the post by 85GOLD (in the link provided by AVM in the above post) is that it only works with a higher load on throttle about 98-100% . When the weather gets better over here I will go for the full load test. Following video is an added no lift shift "tune" on a golf R by APR, they also mention it only works with minimum 98% throttle input.

Thank you Leon

Yes, I would not expect it to work at 4K RPM, as I doubt the rev-matching would have anywhere to go from there, e.g., when I do flat shifting in PDK manual mode I am usually well above 4K RPM, generally up around 6K+ RPM, and it always drops to about 4K RPM. I would not believe you have to be at '98-100%' RPMs, but definitely higher than 4K RPM.

Also, you indicate you were only at 50% throttle. I realize throttle intensity often corresponds to RPMs, but not always. For example, if I am in PDK manual mode, take foot off throttle and downshift, RPMs go way up with no throttle applied. I realize we are talking about no-lift-shift with regard to up-shifting, as nobody would really no-lift-downshift. However, the point of the electronic throttle body override in no-lift-shift is to override the manual throttle input. I know it seems like splitting hairs, but my suspicion is that throttle intensity is crucial. I mean, the entire point of the no-lift-shift is to maintain aggressive throttle intensity. . . not partial-throttle-shift.

Anyway, thank you for the feedback and I look forward to your next trial.

AVM

 

[HooosierDaddy]

For example, if I am in PDK manual mode, take foot off throttle and downshift, RPMs go way up with no throttle applied.

AVM: I'm not trying to be confrontational, simply having trouble understanding how you are drawing comparisons of the PDK experience to the MANUAL... or am I missing the entire thing and just way off base? If I am, I apologize for not being able to comprehend the scenario.

The difference is that the PDK will refuse a downshift that is beyond the mechanical limits of the engine and a manual trans will allow the driver to MONEY SHIFT and cause a mechanical over rev. And again why on manual cars pull a report that records all over rev's.

Here is an explanation of the over rev report from another site:
There are levels 1 to 6. Each level is I think clips of 200 rpm (or 100?) above the limiter. And the number next to it is engine revolutions at that level of rpm. So, anything above a 1 or a 2 means that the engine was over revved quite hard. It is quite seldom to have tips go above that, as in order to go higher, you would be looking at a missed shift (thus manual transmission). And if there is a missed shift, it is likely you will see type 4 and 5, or even a 6. There is also an indication when they happened (hours of operation of the engine) so if you compare relative to the total hours of the engine operation, you can determine how early in the life of a car they took place. The higher type over revs could cause warranty issues.
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In regards to the NoLift Rev Hold.... I'll go test drive a manual car tomorrow if the weather holds. Maybe I can talk the SA in to recording it for us!

There's Zero reason that a manual transmission driver would NEED to Lift their foot off a full or even partial throttle shift. Reason is that the even if the car doesn't have a No-Lift Rev Hold, you'll simply reach the electronic rev limiter, and there's no harm in achieving the electronic rev limit. As for the Rev Hold, I'm not sure that if you are at 95-100% throttle, you'd be able to discern if there was a hold.

 

[HooosierDaddy]

All this shifting talk has me reminiscing on my manual transmission training at 14 years old. I was taught to drive in a manual three on the tree Ford truck and to NOT use the clutch for anything other than taking off from a stop. When you are in perfect harmony with the car, the engine and the trans you can get it all to just drop right into place without the need to depress the clutch! Can't say it's the best method, but thats how I was taught. I feel that it helped me develop an understanding of and connection to the mechanics of what was going on and I've been able to continue that ability to this day.

I also drove big truck for a while, the CDL licensing required you to double clutch your shifts. I have more trouble with double clutching that than shifting without one?

 

[AVM]

AVM: I'm not trying to be confrontational, simply having trouble understanding how you are drawing comparisons of the PDK experience to the MANUAL... or am I missing the entire thing and just way off base? If I am, I apologize for not being able to comprehend the scenario.

The difference is that the PDK will refuse a downshift that is beyond the mechanical limits of the engine and a manual trans will allow the driver to MONEY SHIFT and cause a mechanical over rev. And again why on manual cars pull a report that records all over rev's.

Here is an explanation of the over rev report from another site:
There are levels 1 to 6. Each level is I think clips of 200 rpm (or 100?) above the limiter. And the number next to it is engine revolutions at that level of rpm. So, anything above a 1 or a 2 means that the engine was over revved quite hard. It is quite seldom to have tips go above that, as in order to go higher, you would be looking at a missed shift (thus manual transmission). And if there is a missed shift, it is likely you will see type 4 and 5, or even a 6. There is also an indication when they happened (hours of operation of the engine) so if you compare relative to the total hours of the engine operation, you can determine how early in the life of a car they took place. The higher type over revs could cause warranty issues.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In regards to the NoLift Rev Hold.... I'll go test drive a manual car tomorrow if the weather holds. Maybe I can talk the SA in to recording it for us!

There's Zero reason that a manual transmission driver would NEED to Lift their foot off a full or even partial throttle shift. Reason is that the even if the car doesn't have a No-Lift Rev Hold, you'll simply reach the electronic rev limiter, and there's no harm in achieving the electronic rev limit. As for the Rev Hold, I'm not sure that if you are at 95-100% throttle, you'd be able to discern if there was a hold.

Hoosier

Your tone is fine – no disparaging sensed, only ongoing communication. As you said before, written word is not always as clear as intended.

That stated, you have confused what I was attempting to state. The only reason I brought the downshift example up was to convey RPMs do not always correspond to throttle intensity. Second, the electronic throttle body really does not need to do any rev-matching if you (Leon) are only applying 50% throttle at 4K RPMs. Case and point, when I flat shift in PDK manual mode I am always at 6K+ RPMs and the RPMs always fall to about 4K when shifting. Finally, the entire intent of no-lift-shift is to maintain aggressive throttle - with up-shifting, of course. Hence, also why no-lift shifting is also commonly referred to as ‘flat shifting,’ as in foot flat on the throttle.

The reason I reference PDK manual mode is because the only difference between MT and PDK manual mode is in the former YOU control the clutch and in the latter the computer is controlling the clutch. This is a huge part of my reasoning in suggesting that all MT with electronic throttle bodies (rev-matching) SHOULD be capable of safely performing no-lift-shift. . . not just the GT3.

AVM

 

[AVM]

Hoosier

Hopefully the following simplifies things . . .

PDK manual mode

2nd gear with RPMs at 6500 and throttle 100% . . . leave full throttle and up-shift into 3rd gear (no-lift-shift) . . . RPMs drop to about 4000 and quickly ascend back up toward red line before next shift.

MT

2nd gear with RPMs at 6500 and throttle 100% . . . leave full throttle, APPLY CLUTCH and up-shift into 3rd gear (no-lift-shift) . . . RPMs drop to about 4000 and quickly ascend back up toward red line before next shift.

The ONLY difference between the above is that the COMPUTER controls the clutch in PDK manual mode, while YOU control the clutch in the MT. The electronic throttle body controls the RPMs. Again, this is why I suggest that all MT with electronic throttle bodies SHOULD be able to safely perform no-lift-shift. I have been provided no confirmation one way or the other as to whether my reasoning accurately applies.

As suggested by a member of another forum, it is the application of the clutch that activates rev-matching. I am not certain this is true, but it sounds reasonable? Nonetheless, very easy and safe to test. The only problem with Leon's test was that he only applied 50% throttle (at 4k RPMs) which (1) defies the definition of no-lift-shifting and (2) did not activate rev-matching because RPMs were already safely at 4K. Remember, when I perform flat shift in PDK manual mode, RPMs drop from north of 6K to about 4K.

AVM

 

[CaymanMatt]

Hoosier

Hopefully the following simplifies things . . .

PDK manual mode

2nd gear with RPMs at 6500 and throttle 100% . . . leave full throttle and up-shift into 3rd gear (no-lift-shift) . . . RPMs drop to about 4000 and quickly ascend back up toward red line before next shift.

MT

2nd gear with RPMs at 6500 and throttle 100% . . . leave full throttle, APPLY CLUTCH and up-shift into 3rd gear (no-lift-shift) . . . RPMs drop to about 4000 and quickly ascend back up toward red line before next shift.

The ONLY difference between the above is that the COMPUTER controls the clutch in PDK manual mode, while YOU control the clutch in the MT. The electronic throttle body controls the RPMs. Again, this is why I suggest that all MT with electronic throttle bodies SHOULD be able to safely perform no-lift-shift. I have been provided no confirmation one way or the other as to whether my reasoning accurately applies.

As suggested by a member of another forum, it is the application of the clutch that activates rev-matching. I am not certain this is true, but it sounds reasonable? Nonetheless, very easy and safe to test. The only problem with Leon's test was that he only applied 50% throttle (at 4k RPMs) which (1) defies the definition of no-lift-shifting and (2) did not activate rev-matching because RPMs were already safely at 4K. Remember, when I perform flat shift in PDK manual mode, RPMs drop from north of 6K to about 4K.

AVM

I don't believe this is true. Rev matching needs to know where it's going so it must wait until the gearbox is in the next gear before it matches. The clutch only tells it something is about to happen. I stated before that the computer would need to know you pushed the clutch in IF it was going to do a computer controlled no-lift shift. Hypothetical statement and irrelevant I think to regular rev matching.
I think you should stop worrying about no lift shifting a manual 718. You don't have one and you are getting totally worked up over the differences between two drive systems that are apples and oranges. What works on a PDK doesn't necessarily work for a manual and vice-versa.
MOO

 

[AVM]

I don't believe this is true. Rev matching needs to know where it's going so it must wait until the gearbox is in the next gear before it matches. The clutch only tells it something is about to happen. I stated before that the computer would need to know you pushed the clutch in IF it was going to do a computer controlled no-lift shift. Hypothetical statement and irrelevant I think to regular rev matching.
I think you should stop worrying about no lift shifting a manual 718. You don't have one and you are getting totally worked up over the differences between two drive systems that are apples and oranges. What works on a PDK doesn't necessarily work for a manual and vice-versa.
MOO

Matt

Not worked up at all. Just curious.

At any rate, I do agree that I’ve more than stated my views and reasoning, so kind of just spinning my wheels repeating myself and thinking it will change anything.

I will heed your recommendation and let it go. Maybe someone will find something out definitive down the road and share it.

AVM

 

[HooosierDaddy]

Matt

Not worked up at all. Just curious.

At any rate, I do agree that I’ve more than stated my views and reasoning, so kind of just spinning my wheels repeating myself and thinking it will change anything.

I will heed your recommendation and let it go. Maybe someone will find something out definitive down the road and share it.

AVM

I will gladly flog a dealer car. You know... for the betterment of all mankind!

 

[Westcoaster]

OK, now that we have moved over here from the other thread and some of the videos have followed, regarding the no-lift-shift you might find this interesting regarding about the 718 Spyder and GT4, but not confirmed about the rest of the 718 cars.

I would think Andreas Preuninger knows what the car can do, start at about 5:00 and go to 6:30 to get the full description and story, health benefits too, it sounded pretty definitive to me that (at least) these two cars have this capability.

 

[HooosierDaddy]

The verdict is in!
2019 Boxster S Manual transmission (Non-Sport Chrono Equipped)

There is Zero rev match at any throttle position in any of the drive modes. At full throttle I performed several No Lift shifts at various speeds and gears, all with the same result.

Shifting at max RPM netted hitting the rev limiter.

Shifting at 6600-6800 RPM I was able to perform a full throttle no lift shift before hitting the rev limiter in multiple gears. But the important thing to note is that the RPM’s were on the rise.

Shifting at 5500-5800 full throttle no lift shift nets the same results as above

Now I’ll add this... the manual trans in these cars is simply brilliant and I think I might have to get one!

I also drove a 2009 R8... fantastic looking car for 11 years old, but a base cayman/boxster would smoke that thing in every measurable sense! Worst transmission I’ve had the pleasure of beating on.

I was offered to drive the Taycan Turbo, but I’ve already had a ride in it. I’ll do that another day!

 

[Westcoaster]

@HooosierDaddy , you should have taken the ride in the Taycan Turbo, I heard it has no-lift-shift!