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Discussion Starter #1
Hello all
First of all hope everyone is safe and healthy.
can someone please guide me in proper direction?
i have CPO 2018 cayman that i recently got.
i want to get PPF and ceramic coating done.
color is white if that matters
can some one recommend what brand
expected/paid cost
ant installer recommendation in NY/NJ/CT
thank you
Viktor
 

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Hello @ttw6909

In my own opinion I would do either or, I do not see the benefit of doing both. my 718B has PPF fitted to it and I really enjoy detailing and if I put a coating on her I don't think I would get the same enjoyment in detailing my car trying out new products etc... also depending on the PPF and the coating used the coating can affect the self healing properties of the PPF. So I would decide to go one way or the other but if you want to do both then do it. I just think its not of any benefit to do both as either on their own is by far good enough.


Stay Safe!
 

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Hello @ttw6909

In my own opinion I would do either or, I do not see the benefit of doing both. my 718B has PPF fitted to it and I really enjoy detailing and if I put a coating on her I don't think I would get the same enjoyment in detailing my car trying out new products etc... also depending on the PPF and the coating used the coating can affect the self healing properties of the PPF. So I would decide to go one way or the other but if you want to do both then do it. I just think its not of any benefit to do both as either on their own is by far good enough.


Stay Safe!
thanks for reply
do you mind sharing your detailing protocol/products
 

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A place near me in Texas uses LLumar PPF, however they use the XPEL patterns / cut-out shapes, whatever you call it. I think an entire car can run around $5000?

And no idea on ceramic coatings. Maybe you could only put ceramic coat on the wheels if you have a PPF on the paint. Would be easy to wipe away brake dust.
 

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@ttw6909 - I did both on my Carrera White 2019 GTS. I went with XPEL PPF on the full front and side rocker panel, and then Ceramic Pros coating on the whole car. I love it.
 

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A place near me in Texas uses LLumar PPF, however they use the XPEL patterns / cut-out shapes, whatever you call it. I think an entire car can run around $5000?

And no idea on ceramic coatings. Maybe you could only put ceramic coat on the wheels if you have a PPF on the paint. Would be easy to wipe away brake dust.
I paid $1500 for my PPF and getting my windows Tinted. Remember, I only did full front (hood, bumper, fenders, mirrors and the rocker panels). I paid to have the car detailed, and then I applied the Ceramic Pros myself. Also.... DO THE WHEELS!!!! The whole wheel including the barrel. It makes getting the brake dust so much easier. :D
 

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I paid $1500 for my PPF and getting my windows Tinted. Remember, I only did full front (hood, bumper, fenders, mirrors and the rocker panels). I paid to have the car detailed, and then I applied the Ceramic Pros myself. Also.... DO THE WHEELS!!!! The whole wheel including the barrel. It makes getting the brake dust so much easier. :D
are you in NY?
where did you get your PPF done?
what kind of ceramic coating you did?
easy application?
 

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are you in NY?
where did you get your PPF done?
what kind of ceramic coating you did?
easy application?
No, I'm not in New York I'm in Reno Nevada. I went with Ceramic Pros, and after the detail I had done it was fairly simple to do.

Hit up Epic Wurx Inc in New York. The guy who owns that shop will know who to send you to if not his shop. He did some custom work for me on a previous SEMA build.
 

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No, I'm not in New York I'm in Reno Nevada. I went with Ceramic Pros, and after the detail I had done it was fairly simple to do.

Hit up Epic Wurx Inc in New York. The guy who owns that shop will know who to send you to if not his shop. He did some custom work for me on a previous SEMA build.
thanks
 

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Congrats on the car! I have a white 2017 CS. As far as brands go, XPEL is good for light color cars like white, but not quite as good on dark cars due to orange peel effect and clarity compared to say Suntek, which has a bit better clarity. Both now offer 10 year warrantied products, so you'd be safe with Suntek as well. On the CS, I have XPEL on the whole front clip, rockers, A pillars and across the front of the roof line, mirror caps and door handle area. Against the white body there is the slightest of tone difference, but to me its worth having the protection. Rock chips drive me crazy, so I think it is worth it! Cost me $2k in Atlanta to install last January from one of the top guys in the area.

As far as ceramic coat, I just installed Adams 5yr coating on my car. To do it yourself you need to be able to do a full detail (strip wash, decon, claybar) and at a minimum, polish (paint correction, if needed). If you aren't willing or able to do that, take it to a pro cause the prep will make or break your coating install. Personal preference on coating vs. sealant/wax route. While I do enjoy detailing my cars, the coating should provide a little better protection (hardness) with less maintenance/time. My BMW is sealant/wax maintained and is parked outside and handles the elements well with routine detailing maintenance.

Oh, and don't let anyone tell you a coating and PPF are the same thing or its one or the other. PPF is actual protection from objects like rocks damaging your car (I've even had a truck swipe the bumper of my 2 series and the PPF saved the paint, sacrificially of course). A coating is not going to do that. It's meant to protect the paint from environmental and chemical hazards that you encounter when driving and parking your car outside. It still needs to be maintained to continue to work for you, but less maintenance than a sealant/wax alone or in combo. PPF will also need to be maintained to last and has a layer of clear coat on it that allows you to lay down a coating or other protection on it and is therefore quite useful to help protect your investment. Just don't use abrasive compounds on it, only polish!

On my wheels I've used Gyeon Rim on my BMW a couple of times and it holds up about 6 months or so on this daily. Just installed Kamikaze Rim Stance on the CS, so we'll see how long that holds up, hopefully longer. It does help with removal of break dust, but it doesn't really make much of difference if you maintain your wheels, IMHO.
 

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IMO PPF and coatings have two different purposes. Whether they go together I don't know.
PPF--protection from chips and serious scratches.
Coatings--extra shine, easy washing, and protection from sun, light scratches, corrosive dust, bird sh_t, etc.

I have the OptiCoat Pro+ and love it. Stone chipping is not an issue here. (I had the basic OptiCoat on my last car and after 5 years the paint was still in showroom condition despite 5 years of Australian sun, parrot droppings, and concrete dust from the factory across the street from work.)

As mentioned above—whatever you decide, put a coating on the wheels for easy brake dust removal and protection from its corrosive effects on alloy wheels.
 

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From new I had the car detailed and Ceramic Coated (Gtechniq). Then Xpel PPF applied and the PPF ceramic coated again. Has been a pleasure to keep clean / look nice. One observation. PPF is paint protection film. Not paint enhancement film. No amount of detailing will make it look like the actual paintwork after a couple of hours tending to it.
 

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Coatings or PPF...or both? We have 3 cars that are coated and 1 with PPF + Coating. Some things I've pondered/experienced:

Quartz/Glass/Ceramic Coatings

While these are often marketed as ‘scratch resistant’, with spiffy phrases like “Diamond-Infused 10h Hardness” it’s largely irrelevant. While the coating you put on your paint may indeed be technically ‘harder’ than your clear coat the reality is that it’s such an infinitesimal difference as to be practically meaningless. The hardest coating in all the kingdom will still be measurably softer than your fingernail.

Some more info from professionals regarding coatings and scratch resistance:
- Are ceramic coatings scratch-proof?:

What coatings do offer is great resistance to environmental contamination and excellent self-cleaning characteristics. While they are no silver bullet, “Never gonna wash my car again” solution, the best of them can indeed keep your car cleaner with less effort. And less effort means less touching of the paint which means less chance for marking up that paint. Additionally, they can provide some protection from ‘environmental incidents’ (aka ‘Bird Bombs’) which could otherwise permanently etch the surface.

Additionally, while coatings are not scratch proof, there are a few coatings that offer some ‘limited self-healing’ characteristics. Kamikaze Zipang is one that I have on 2 of our cars. Again, it’s very important to read carefully and understand the limitations of such technology. I’ve tried a bunch of coatings over the past 3 years, looking for one that offered the best protection and self-cleaning characteristics I could find, mostly with black paint in mind. Kamikaze was the best suited to my needs/desires in that area. From the US Vendors Website:

Quote:
"With Zipang Coat, the chemistry provides even higher levels of gloss and brilliance than their ISM / ISM Pro coatings, and it offers semi self-healing characteristics, meaning that the appearance of small swirls or imperfections in the coating surface will reduce when exposed to heat."

Note the words “REDUCE” as opposed to “ELIMINATE” as it’s an important distinction to consider when setting expectations. Although totally amateurish and done with a cell phone camera, a flashlight held in my mouth and a heat gun, a few paragraphs down in the notes I kept about my Zipang experience are some pics that illustrate this on a very minor level: Glass/Quartz/Ceramic Coatings – Kamikaze Miyabi, ISM, Zipang, 22ple, Cquartz, Gtechniq CSL, EXO and more.

Here’s a video where a professional explains it better than I ever could:
What does self-healing mean?:

A few other vids from a pro explaining various other considerations of coatings:
1. 5 Common MYTHS About Ceramic Coating!:

2. Will I Be Disappointed with a Ceramic Coating?:

Paint Protection Film/PPF:

In my mind, the next step up the ladder is Paint Protection Film, aka Clear Bra and a few other names that elude me right now.

PPF will provide a level of protection from road debris, chips and other defects and most current films have self-healing capabilities that can help minimize defects…again with limitations. My guess is due to the film thickness (8mil, I believe) vs coating layer thickness (probably measured in microns?) deeper defects can be reduced/healed better with PPF as opposed to coatings. In April 2019 we bought a new, black Corvette for my wife which we had STEK Dynoshield applied to all painted surfaces. I’m only 6 months in (last Summer) with it so no long term opinions but I’ve kept some notes on the first 6 months here: Life with PPF: STEK Dynoshield

The film also has some hydrophobic, coating-like properties built into it so self-cleaning effects will be present. Most films can be topped with a coating as well, perhaps further enhancing the coating-like benefits. Not cheap to have a whole car wrapped but if you’re gonna go big, may as well go REALLY big.

What folks smarter than I have to say about PPF:
- Should I get PPF or Ceramic Coatings on my car?:

Lotsa choices, no perfect answer. Your best means of knowledge and info is your PROFESSIONAL Detailer a trusted, a knowledgeable professional has seen and done far more than any half-wit hobbyist like myself ever will so it’s best to take advantage of what they can offer.

I'm kinda a 'coating junkie' in that I spent 3 years trying about 20-25 different coatings looking for what worked best for me. Keep all of my notes on that here if interested: Glass/Quartz/Ceramic Coatings – Kamikaze Miyabi, ISM, Zipang, 22ple, Cquartz, Gtechniq CSL, EXO and more.

When I snatched up a 981 last fall, went at it immediately, a bit about that here: 2016 Porsche 981 Cayman S

Not a pro, just having fun!
 

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I think ceramic coatings are a good option for folks who, like me, drive mostly in less hostile conditions (such as heavy highway traffic or numerous track days). I had four coats of Ceramic Pro put on my car within a few weeks of delivery, and I've had it back for its annual cleaning and top coat renewal. Other than two track weekends, HPDEs, a year, it spends its time almost exclusively on nearly barren country back roads. I put about 5.5K miles on the car in its first year, including one 360-mile trip on non-interstate roads. Once, early on, I met a gravel truck in the country (average speed 65-70 mph) and a rock hit the front of my car. I thought it had hit the windshield and cracked the whole thing it made such a bang, but that was quickly seen as untrue. Rinse-less washing the bugs off later I could not find where the rock had hit. A later wash, I did see a tiny chipped glass type of reflection and did find a tiny imperfection. So, it may not have a hardness of 9h as advertised, but mine is able to take some degree of rock and track marbles without significant damage. I did add some carbon fiber aero items to my car recently, and when I had my detailer coat the duck tail spoiler/wing and front splitter, he did add PPF to both over my original objections, although he did so without charging me for them when I picked them up prior to installing them.
 

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So, it may not have a hardness of 9h as advertised
Claims of hardness, scratch resistance and such are, IMO, way over-marketed with coatings. While they may provide some minor resistance to light marring, it’s a harsh world out there and many things (jewelry banging paint around door handles, boxes hitting trunk areas while loading, leaning on hood of vehicle with grimy sweatshirts, etc) will leave a mark. Problem with coatings is the only way to remedy those marks/marring is to re-polish (removing coating) and re-coating that area, generally an entire panel as many coatings don’t lend themselves well to spot fixes. If you’re horribly OCD-ish about having a totally defect free car for 2 years and dont wanna go with PPF, a coating may not be the best way to go…or a ‘lighter’ coating like Gyeon CanCoat may be more appropriate.

Additionally, while trying to wrap my my around it I kinda came up with the following to help understand it in my SiO2 addled mind:

It’s all nonsense marketing. My 2h fingernail will leave a mark on a 10h coating.

The ‘h’ hardness can be measured in 2 different ways...

The Mohs scale of mineral hardness is a scale characterizing scratch resistance of various minerals through the ability of harder material to scratch softer material.

The Pencil Hardness test employs various graphite pencils of varying hardness to determine the h-hardness measurements. Since even the hardest pencil is still made of graphite (Mohs hardness of 1-2) it seems possible (to me anyway) that even a 9h coating (as measured by the pencil test) is really, comparably, at most a 2h hardness and thus quite easily scratched.

For the purposes of coating hardness, perhaps considering the pencil test a subset of the Mohs test which, although kinda a generalization may be useful for comparative purposes. The pencil test, based upon graphite testing pencils, then translates into a subset of the Mohs

MOHS Scale with Pencil Test Subset (and yeah, I just kinda made this up based upon info I could find)
MOHS Hardness

1 Talc

1.5 Graphite

Pencil Test Subset applicable to coatings using graphite pencils:

---1h
---2h
---3h Average Automotive Paint
---4h Average Automotive Paint
---5h
---6h
---7h
---8h
---9h
---10h

2 Gypsum

2-2.5 Fingernail

3 Calcite

4 Fluorite

5 Apatite

6 Orthoclase feldspar

7 Quartz

8 Topaz

9 Corundum

10 Diamond

So, given that coatings are measured using the pencil test (graphite) there is no way for a coating to be any harder than 2 measured on the Mohs scale while a fingernail is 2-2.5 on Mohs

Fingernail – 2-2.5 (Mohs)
Clearcoat – 3-4h (Mohs equivalent 1.5)
A 9h coating – 9h (Mohs Equivalent 1.5)

While a coating is indeed slightly harder than the generally accepted toughness of clearcoat, the actual difference is likely very, very, VERY small and my fingernail will still goon up a vaunted 10h coating.

So, while a mfg can claim that their 9h coating is ‘more than twice as hard’ as your clearcoat, it’s really not saying much.

Of course there are more than a few other variables that enter into the equation of scratch resistance (substrate hardness, for one) but, for me, the benefits of coating are the resistance to environmental and the self-cleaning characteristics. I stopped caring about scratch resistance long, long ago w regards to ceramics alone.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Claims of hardness, scratch resistance and such are, IMO, way over-marketed with coatings. While they may provide some minor resistance to light marring, it’s a harsh world out there and many things (jewelry banging paint around door handles, boxes hitting trunk areas while loading, leaning on hood of vehicle with grimy sweatshirts, etc) will leave a mark. Problem with coatings is the only way to remedy those marks/marring is to re-polish (removing coating) and re-coating that area, generally an entire panel as many coatings don’t lend themselves well to spot fixes. If you’re horribly OCD-ish about having a totally defect free car for 2 years and dont wanna go with PPF, a coating may not be the best way to go…or a ‘lighter’ coating like Gyeon CanCoat may be more appropriate.

Additionally, while trying to wrap my my around it I kinda came up with the following to help understand it in my SiO2 addled mind:

It’s all nonsense marketing. My 2h fingernail will leave a mark on a 10h coating.

The ‘h’ hardness can be measured in 2 different ways...

The Mohs scale of mineral hardness is a scale characterizing scratch resistance of various minerals through the ability of harder material to scratch softer material.

The Pencil Hardness test employs various graphite pencils of varying hardness to determine the h-hardness measurements. Since even the hardest pencil is still made of graphite (Mohs hardness of 1-2) it seems possible (to me anyway) that even a 9h coating (as measured by the pencil test) is really, comparably, at most a 2h hardness and thus quite easily scratched.

For the purposes of coating hardness, perhaps considering the pencil test a subset of the Mohs test which, although kinda a generalization may be useful for comparative purposes. The pencil test, based upon graphite testing pencils, then translates into a subset of the Mohs

MOHS Scale with Pencil Test Subset (and yeah, I just kinda made this up based upon info I could find)
MOHS Hardness

1 Talc

1.5 Graphite

Pencil Test Subset applicable to coatings using graphite pencils:

---1h
---2h
---3h Average Automotive Paint
---4h Average Automotive Paint
---5h
---6h
---7h
---8h
---9h
---10h

2 Gypsum

2-2.5 Fingernail

3 Calcite

4 Fluorite

5 Apatite

6 Orthoclase feldspar

7 Quartz

8 Topaz

9 Corundum

10 Diamond

So, given that coatings are measured using the pencil test (graphite) there is no way for a coating to be any harder than 2 measured on the Mohs scale while a fingernail is 2-2.5 on Mohs

Fingernail – 2-2.5 (Mohs)
Clearcoat – 3-4h (Mohs equivalent 1.5)
A 9h coating – 9h (Mohs Equivalent 1.5)

While a coating is indeed slightly harder than the generally accepted toughness of clearcoat, the actual difference is likely very, very, VERY small and my fingernail will still goon up a vaunted 10h coating.

So, while a mfg can claim that their 9h coating is ‘more than twice as hard’ as your clearcoat, it’s really not saying much.

Of course there are more than a few other variables that enter into the equation of scratch resistance (substrate hardness, for one) but, for me, the benefits of coating are the resistance to environmental and the self-cleaning characteristics. I stopped caring about scratch resistance long, long ago w regards to ceramics alone.
So what do you recommend
In terms of easy to clean and some protection?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Coatings or PPF...or both? We have 3 cars that are coated and 1 with PPF + Coating. Some things I've pondered/experienced:

Quartz/Glass/Ceramic Coatings

While these are often marketed as ‘scratch resistant’, with spiffy phrases like “Diamond-Infused 10h Hardness” it’s largely irrelevant. While the coating you put on your paint may indeed be technically ‘harder’ than your clear coat the reality is that it’s such an infinitesimal difference as to be practically meaningless. The hardest coating in all the kingdom will still be measurably softer than your fingernail.

Some more info from professionals regarding coatings and scratch resistance:
- Are ceramic coatings scratch-proof?:

What coatings do offer is great resistance to environmental contamination and excellent self-cleaning characteristics. While they are no silver bullet, “Never gonna wash my car again” solution, the best of them can indeed keep your car cleaner with less effort. And less effort means less touching of the paint which means less chance for marking up that paint. Additionally, they can provide some protection from ‘environmental incidents’ (aka ‘Bird Bombs’) which could otherwise permanently etch the surface.

Additionally, while coatings are not scratch proof, there are a few coatings that offer some ‘limited self-healing’ characteristics. Kamikaze Zipang is one that I have on 2 of our cars. Again, it’s very important to read carefully and understand the limitations of such technology. I’ve tried a bunch of coatings over the past 3 years, looking for one that offered the best protection and self-cleaning characteristics I could find, mostly with black paint in mind. Kamikaze was the best suited to my needs/desires in that area. From the US Vendors Website:

Quote:
"With Zipang Coat, the chemistry provides even higher levels of gloss and brilliance than their ISM / ISM Pro coatings, and it offers semi self-healing characteristics, meaning that the appearance of small swirls or imperfections in the coating surface will reduce when exposed to heat."

Note the words “REDUCE” as opposed to “ELIMINATE” as it’s an important distinction to consider when setting expectations. Although totally amateurish and done with a cell phone camera, a flashlight held in my mouth and a heat gun, a few paragraphs down in the notes I kept about my Zipang experience are some pics that illustrate this on a very minor level: Glass/Quartz/Ceramic Coatings – Kamikaze Miyabi, ISM, Zipang, 22ple, Cquartz, Gtechniq CSL, EXO and more.

Here’s a video where a professional explains it better than I ever could:
What does self-healing mean?:

A few other vids from a pro explaining various other considerations of coatings:
1. 5 Common MYTHS About Ceramic Coating!:

2. Will I Be Disappointed with a Ceramic Coating?:

Paint Protection Film/PPF:

In my mind, the next step up the ladder is Paint Protection Film, aka Clear Bra and a few other names that elude me right now.

PPF will provide a level of protection from road debris, chips and other defects and most current films have self-healing capabilities that can help minimize defects…again with limitations. My guess is due to the film thickness (8mil, I believe) vs coating layer thickness (probably measured in microns?) deeper defects can be reduced/healed better with PPF as opposed to coatings. In April 2019 we bought a new, black Corvette for my wife which we had STEK Dynoshield applied to all painted surfaces. I’m only 6 months in (last Summer) with it so no long term opinions but I’ve kept some notes on the first 6 months here: Life with PPF: STEK Dynoshield

The film also has some hydrophobic, coating-like properties built into it so self-cleaning effects will be present. Most films can be topped with a coating as well, perhaps further enhancing the coating-like benefits. Not cheap to have a whole car wrapped but if you’re gonna go big, may as well go REALLY big.

What folks smarter than I have to say about PPF:
- Should I get PPF or Ceramic Coatings on my car?:

Lotsa choices, no perfect answer. Your best means of knowledge and info is your PROFESSIONAL Detailer a trusted, a knowledgeable professional has seen and done far more than any half-wit hobbyist like myself ever will so it’s best to take advantage of what they can offer.

I'm kinda a 'coating junkie' in that I spent 3 years trying about 20-25 different coatings looking for what worked best for me. Keep all of my notes on that here if interested: Glass/Quartz/Ceramic Coatings – Kamikaze Miyabi, ISM, Zipang, 22ple, Cquartz, Gtechniq CSL, EXO and more.

When I snatched up a 981 last fall, went at it immediately, a bit about that here: 2016 Porsche 981 Cayman S

Not a pro, just having fun!
amazing!!!
Can you be my friend?
We can make drink and clean afternoons😜
 

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On my wheels I've used Gyeon Rim on my BMW a couple of times and it holds up about 6 months or so on this daily. Just installed Kamikaze Rim Stance on the CS, so we'll see how long that holds up, hopefully longer. It does help with removal of break dust, but it doesn't really make much of difference if you maintain your wheels, IMHO.
You'll likely be pleased with Stance. I've used Gyeon Rim, IGL Wheel, Gtech G5 and Stance is far and away the best. After 42k miles on my heavily used, NE Ohio daily driver the Stance-coated wheels required only a light cleanup last Summer before I coated 'em again.

Coating my wheels saves me far more maintenance time than even coated paint. Wheels are such a big part of a cars appearance and keeping them clean is such an unpleasant chore that I'll never own any car again without the wheels coated in the best product I can find.

I'll occasionally hit the wheels with a bit of Polish Angel Supersport too; not really for any functional reason as Stance takes care of that but rather because it leaves an additional bit of luster that is pleasing to the eye...and it's fun and easy. I like easy
 
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