[AVM]

It was suggested that my comments about accessing the performance limits of a PDK 718 in the ‘Return of the F6’ thread was derailing the discussion . . . so I resorted to a new thread.

In brief, I dislike the soundtrack of my 718 CGTS at low RPMs. Tolerable when wound out to higher RPMs, where the soundtrack becomes more of a continuous ‘whine’ . . . I want the NAF6 ‘wail,’ but can live with the wound-out whine of the 718.

To constantly wind the piss out of the 718 I learned and resorted to driving in PDK manual mode, where I live between 4-6K+ RPMs. What I discovered is that the soundtrack not only becomes ‘tolerable,’ but turbo lag is also significantly reduced, if not eliminated. In addition to the wailing soundtrack of the NA F6, I love the linear throttle response that matches the soundtrack. By winding the piss out of the 718 I attain that linear throttle response.

What I am looking for feedback on is the following. . . the only advantage I recognize with Sport and Sport-Plus in PDK automatic mode is the ability to improve upon - but not come close to achieving - what I can do in PDK manual mode. Namely, shifts are held at higher RPMs in Sport mode, and higher yet in Sport-Plus mode (around 4K RPM in the latter). . . whereas I now live between 4-6K+ RMPs in PDK manual mode.

I have yet to confirm the advantage to using Normal versus Sport versus Sport-Plus performance modes with PDK manual mode? The ONLY thing I have noticed to date is a sense that (paddle) shifts are quicker in Sport mode, and quicker yet in Sport-Plus mode. Anyone who has become acquainted with winding the piss out of the 718 in PDK manual mode would likely appreciate the advantage of faster the shifts. Particularly in lower gears, where you get back to red line VERY quickly with aggressive throttle intensity. As an aside, this is a HUGE advantage of PDK manual mode over a true manual transmission, as you do not need to release the throttle in PDK manual mode – no ‘heel to toe’ required.

Since the PDK is already a lot faster than any human can manually shift, I am not sure Porsche engineers made the shifts quicker between Normal, Sport and Sport-Plus while using PDK manual mode? Perhaps just my imagination?

Overall, I am interested to defining/confirming the performance advantage to using Sport or Sport-Plus over Normal performance modes while driving in PDK manual mode??? It seems there MUST be an advantage, otherwise Porsche engineers would not include Sport and Sport-Plus with their manual transmissions.

Feedback appreciated.

AVM

 

[duegatti]

I have never viewed the PDK as an automatic transmission. To me, it's the engine speed control. I paddle shift in one of the sport modes almost exclusively.

The Chart should help:

It's funny how a four, with better low end response, is deemed to at once have "turbo lag", and an "un-engaging wall of torque", but a six that's a dog down low is blessed with "linear throttle response" - like that's a good thing.

An added benefit of the modes, for me, is the difference in exhaust sound between Sport and Sport+ - sometimes I want the obnoxious popping and burbles; sometimes I don't.

 

[antennahead]

It's funny how a four, with better low end response, is deemed to at once have "turbo lag", and an "un-engaging wall of torque", but a six that's a dog down low is blessed with "linear throttle response" - like that's a good thing.

?

 

[AVM]

It's funny how a four, with better low end response, is deemed to at once have "turbo lag", and an "un-engaging wall of torque", but a six that's a dog down low is blessed with "linear throttle response" - like that's a good thing.

Dueg

Linear, as in crescendo, not as in flat. To ME it’s a GREAT thing compared to the lag, followed by a Turbo burst.

At any rate, in BOTH the F4 Turbo and NA F6, everything good happens higher in the power band and can be accessed by ringing them out. . . as before, if you cannot or do not like ringing it out, then access to the low-end torque can be engaging in whatever form it arrives.

Regarding the chart, it doesn’t really reveal what I’m after. The one category that likely holds the answer is ‘Response,’ but that is vague and doesn’t define what is responsible for the ‘improvement’ in Sport and Sport-Plus?

The one category I find interesting is ‘Lighting System.’ What is Normal vs Sport Lighting?

AVM

 

[Third]

...

Overall, I am interested to defining/confirming the performance advantage to using Sport or Sport-Plus over Normal performance modes while driving in PDK manual mode??? It seems there MUST be an advantage, otherwise Porsche engineers would not include Sport and Sport-Plus with their manual transmissions.

Feedback appreciated.

AVM

I'm not of the impression that shifting speed (ie, the time between disengagement of one gear and the engagement of the next) is impacted by or a function of SportChrono mode at all. Timing of the shifts (ie, when they occur with PDK) yes, but speed, no. Other than those items that are switched off or on, most apparent to me when selecting either of the Sport modes with PDK or manual transmission is the throttle response going from somewhat linear to exponential.

 

[982CS]

I'm not of the impression that shifting speed (ie, the time between disengagement of one gear and the engagement of the next) is impacted by or a function of SportChrono mode at all. Timing of the shifts (ie, when they occur with PDK) yes, but speed, no. Other than those items that are switched off or on, most apparent to me when selecting either of the Sport modes with PDK or manual transmission is the throttle response going from somewhat linear to exponential.

Well, my impression is that the speed of the gear change is noticeably quicker in Sport+ than in Sport. Like duegatti, I drive exclusively in PDK manual mode, and have done since getting the car (i've probably not driven more than 20 miles in automatic mode).

 

[johan]

If your in manual shifting and driving normal in either mode there aint much of a difference in the shifting.
Its all smooth as velvet.
Step it up to more spirited driving and shift above 3500-4500 rpm the shifting gets more agressive in sport/sport+
Be a hooligan in sport+ you will feel a pronounced kick for every shift (much as a MT)

 

[AVM]

982 and Johan

So, each of your perceptions are in keeping with those of my own. Namely, as you move from Normal to Sport to Sport-Plus performance modes in the PDK manual mode, the shifts become ‘quicker’ or ‘brisker.’

Johan, I like your comment describing a ‘pronounced kick.’ Very accurate.

This is a very interesting phenomenon, as we can already click a ‘paddle’ much quicker than any human can manually shift, and the PDK can perform shifts much quicker than any human can manually shift. Yet, it appears increasing the performance mode from Normal to Sport to Sport-Plus takes it up further notches.

As per my prior post, when ringing out the 718 in PDK manual mode you get back to red line VERY quickly – particularly in lower gears - so perceived millisecond improvement in shifts is welcomed. I cannot confirm, but my perception is that (from a stop) I move through 1st to 3rd gears in about 3-4 seconds. I do not bounce off red line, but come pretty d*mn close with every shift. Of course, by the time I get to 3rd gear, I am going north of 60 MPH and just keep it rung out at 4-6K RPMs. I sure as h*ll hope Porsche engineers have a 'special' 3rd gear because I pretty much live in it. ? If not, nothing my warranty cannot overcome.

With the genius of the PDK, I am wondering why anyone would ever opt for a true manual transmission over the PDK manual mode? No human could possibly shift faster than the PDK allows you with the paddles AND you do not have to ever release the throttle. . . this comes from a guy who, up until a week or two ago was all but committed to going back to a manual transmission.

AVM

 

[Third]

I'll have to try for myself. I certainly never noticed a difference in how fast any isolated gear-change happens as a function of normal-sport-sport+ mode. In fact, it's not obvious to me why a delay would be programmed in, ie, for what purpose? There are times when driving a manual transmission where you might like to hold the clutch to the floor a moment or two longer before re-engaging the transmission, but unless you could control the length of the delay just the same with PDK (you can't), I don't know why engineers would program in, for example an arbitrary 50 msec delay in one mode and 100 msec delay in another.

 

[johan]

982 and Johan

So, each of your perceptions are in keeping with those of my own. Namely, as you move from Normal to Sport to Sport-Plus performance modes in the PDK manual mode, the shifts become ‘quicker’ or ‘brisker.’

Johan, I like your comment describing a ‘pronounced kick.’ Very accurate.

This is a very interesting phenomenon, as we can already click a ‘paddle’ much quicker than any human can manually shift, and the PDK can perform shifts much quicker than any human can manually shift. Yet, it appears increasing the performance mode from Normal to Sport to Sport-Plus takes it up further notches.

As per my prior post, when ringing out the 718 in PDK manual mode you get back to red line VERY quickly – particularly in lower gears - so perceived millisecond improvement in shifts is welcomed. I cannot confirm, but my perception is that (from a stop) I move through 1st to 3rd gears in about 3-4 seconds. I do not bounce off red line, but come pretty d*mn close with every shift. Of course, by the time I get to 3rd gear, I am going north of 60 MPH and just keep it rung out at 4-6K RPMs. I sure as h*ll hope Porsche engineers have a 'special' 3rd gear because I pretty much live in it. ? If not, nothing my warranty cannot overcome.

With the genius of the PDK, I am wondering why anyone would ever opt for a true manual transmission over the PDK manual mode? No human could possibly shift faster than the PDK allows you with the paddles AND you do not have to ever release the throttle. . . this comes from a guy who, up until a week or two ago was all but committed to going back to a manual transmission.

AVM

IMO there is one thing that the pdk cant do, thats the special feeling to be connected with the car while braking hard and going down thru the gears.
The engine brake with a pdk has another feel to it compared to a MT.
But i dont say that pdk sucks while brking, it is all up to me to learn to adjust

 

[AVM]

I'll have to try for myself. I certainly never noticed a difference in how fast any isolated gear-change happens as a function of normal-sport-sport+ mode. In fact, it's not obvious to me why a delay would be programmed in, ie, for what purpose? There are times when driving a manual transmission where you might like to hold the clutch to the floor a moment or two longer before re-engaging the transmission, but unless you could control the length of the delay just the same with PDK (you can't), I don't know why engineers would program in, for example an arbitrary 50 msec delay in one mode and 100 msec delay in another.

Third

I agree with you. . . everything stated is based off perception, not confirmation by Porsche or other source. That is why I indicate the shifts are perceived as being 'quicker' or 'brisker.' I will be the first to admit perception may not be reality.

AVM

 

[AVM]

IMO there is one thing that the pdk cant do, thats the special feeling to be connected with the car while braking hard and going down thru the gears.
The engine brake with a pdk has another feel to it compared to a MT.
But i dont say that pdk sucks while brking, it is all up to me to learn to adjust

Johan

I understand the 'connection' with the car that many enjoy when having a shifter in-hand and the heel-to-toe sequence. I am not about to dispel or refute what others find most enjoyable.

Personally, I find the PDK manual mode with paddles very satisfying in terms of engagement. Other than that, I am all about performance and have no doubt the PDK outperforms anything I can do with a manual transmission.

As far as braking with the transmission, I honestly feel the downshifts are no different than with a true manual. I suppose the only objective manner in which I could support such claim is to compare directly with a 718 CGTS MT, which I have not done.

AVM

 

[Third]

Third

I agree with you. . . everything stated is based off perception, not confirmation by Porsche or other source. That is why I indicate the shift are perceived as being 'quicker' or 'brisker.' I will be the first to admit perception may not be reality.

AVM

By the way, I'm in total agreement with you about the merits of PDK over a fully manual transmission. I do understand why many enjoy the full experience of a manual transmission, but as for myself, I'm not going back when it comes to modern day Porsches.

 

[AVM]

By the way, I'm in total agreement with you about the merits of PDK over a fully manual transmission. I do understand why many enjoy the full experience of a manual transmission, but as for myself, I'm not going back when it comes to modern day Porsches.

Third

In other threads I have stated, until recently, I really did not know how to use the PDK to maximize performance.

I thought ‘automatic’ meant the transmission would automatically do what I could manually do myself. I thought the PDK manual and paddle options were just gimmicks to appeal to individuals such as myself accustomed to driving a true manual transmission.

I was wrong.

AVM

 

[DriveInHouston]

What a bunch of hoons!
@AVM, you are still wrong, but to find out, you have to drive the car to the limit and you could easily kill yourself.

 

[Third]

...

I thought the PDK manual and paddle options were just gimmicks to appeal to individuals such as myself accustomed to driving a true manual transmission.
...

AVM,

In fact I wouldn't buy a PDK that didn't have paddle shifters. (On 981s they were an option!) It's not so that I can drive in manual mode, but so I can make gear selections on the fly while in automatic mode. PDK is good, but it doesn't see the traffic nor does it know what i'm thinking every second. I drive in automatic 100% of the time, but that doesn't mean I don't drop down a gear or two, or takeover when the situation warrants!

 

[AVM]

AVM,

In fact I wouldn't buy a PDK that didn't have paddle shifters. (On 981s they were an option!) It's not so that I can drive in manual mode, but so I can make gear selections on the fly while in automatic mode. PDK is good, but it doesn't see the traffic nor does it know what i'm thinking every second. I drive in automatic 100% of the time, but that doesn't mean I don't drop down a gear or two, or takeover when the situation warrants!

Third

Yes, the PDK appears to represent a buffet of options, capable of satiating appetites of many different driving styles and preferences.

AVM

 

[johan]

Johan

I understand the 'connection' with the car that many enjoy when having a shifter in-hand and the heel-to-toe sequence. I am not about to dispel or refute what others find most enjoyable.

Personally, I find the PDK manual mode with paddles very satisfying in terms of engagement. Other than that, I am all about performance and have no doubt the PDK outperforms anything I can do with a manual transmission.

As far as braking with the transmission, I honestly feel the downshifts are no different than with a true manual. I suppose the only objective manner in which I could support such claim is to compare directly with a 718 CGTS MT, which I have not done.

AVM

I am with you all the way on that one, i have had pdk on all three 718.
When i feel that i need to go "old school" i take the 986 S for a ride.

 

[DriveInHouston]

The faster you drive on autoPDK, the more the PDK drives like a human driver. If you drive so fast that you require maximum braking in every turn, the PDK will give you the optimum braking combining the engine with the brakes, downshifting 2 or even 3 gears. A marvelous experience! I had 3 double shifts but no triple in the 12k mi. I am driving the car.

Normally, even when we are driving fast, rarely is our hair on fire, so the PDK will give you the right gear when you get on the gas past the apex. That’s what makes us think that we can ‘guide’ the PDK to do better by downshifting before the apex.

That’s why I told our friend AVM that he is wrong about autoPDK but to get the PDK to perform better, he would have to drive so fast, he might kill himself.

To elaborate, he drives ‘manually’ around 4k rpm minimum, at times staying at a lower gear (with no boost because he is not accelerating) until he can either accelerate or brake and downshift.

Driving autoPDK in the absolute, you will either be accelerating, or standing on the brakes ALL the time. So, in twisties, instead of riding 50-70 on (3d?) modulating the gas, you will be doing 50-100... One mistake and you are toast!

 

[AVM]

The faster you drive on autoPDK, the more the PDK drives like a human driver. If you drive so fast that you require maximum braking in every turn, the PDK will give you the optimum braking combining the engine with the brakes, downshifting 2 or even 3 gears. A marvelous experience! I had 3 double shifts but no triple in the 12k mi. I am driving the car.

Normally, even when we are driving fast, rarely is our hair on fire, so the PDK will give you the right gear when you get on the gas past the apex. That’s what makes us think that we can ‘guide’ the PDK to do better by downshifting before the apex.

That’s why I told our friend AVM that he is wrong about autoPDK but to get the PDK to perform better, he would have to drive so fast, he might kill himself.

To elaborate, he drives ‘manually’ around 4k rpm minimum, at times staying at a lower gear (with no boost because he is not accelerating) until he can either accelerate or brake and downshift.

Driving autoPDK in the absolute, you will either be accelerating, or standing on the brakes ALL the time. So, in twisties, instead of riding 50-70 on (3d?) modulating the gas, you will be doing 50-100... One mistake and you are toast!

DIH

In PDK automatic mode you describe ‘maximum braking’ and ‘accelerating or standing on the brakes ALL the time’ as the optimum performance experience. . . I am ‘wrong’ about my impression of PDK automatic mode . . . and to get the PDK to perform better in automatic mode I would have to drive so fast I might kill myself.

1. There are many forms of driving pleasure and tendency. Your pleasures and tendencies are clearly different than those of my own, BUT I would never say you are wrong for taking an approach that provides you the most enjoyment.

2. ‘Maximum braking’ and ‘accelerating or standing on the brakes all the time’ certainly sound like favorable, if not required strategies on a track. However, I do not track my vehicle. The only time I would ever consider maximum braking is under an emergency. I prefer to allow the transmission to assist in braking (by manually downshifting) over slamming on the brakes just to get the PDK to jump down a couple gears, or three.

3. I have no interest in killing myself and, as such, no interest in trying to push the limits of the PDK in automatic mode to achieve optimum performance in said mode. I much prefer quickness and the experiencing ‘pull’ over ‘going fast’. . . and braking fast. I guess ‘fast’ is relative, but I enjoy getting from 30-60 out of a twisty much more than from 60-120 coming off a freeway on-ramp. In short, I prefer what I perceive as optimum performance in PDK manual mode – and I am not wrong because my preference is not in keeping with that of your own preference. . . or because I do not want to kill myself pushing speed and brake limits of the PDK in automatic mode.

4. The reason I enjoy living at 4-6K+ RPM in PDK manual mode is because (1) that is the heart of the power band (boost or no boost), and (2) I enjoy the concomitant soundtrack when the engine is rung out. Incidentally, living in the heart of the powerband DOES minimize, if not eliminate turbo lag – at least, the wall of boost I dislike. I much prefer the linear (crescendo) throttle response. Not only do I enjoy living in the heart of the power band, I can control where I live – where I WANT to live – better than PDK in automatic mode could ever achieve for me.

While I might need a new 3rd gear prematurely, sounds like you will require new brakes prematurely. No problem, as to each his own.

AVM