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Try a Jaguar XK120. Or if you want something with roll up windows, a 3.8 Jag E-Type. You will love them - lots of "engagement". Look in Hemmings.
If I wanted an old car I would buy an Alfa Romeo. Owned 5 of them. Would sell the Boxster and buy a brand new 1963 Alfa Guilia Sprint coupe if I could.
 

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If I wanted an old car I would buy an Alfa Romeo. Owned 5 of them. Would sell the Boxster and buy a brand new 1963 Alfa Guilia Sprint coupe if I could.
Definitely. That is in my dream 10 car garage one day.

I had a horrible experience with modern Alfas (Giulia QV that I finally sold this year), but an older one I think would be less bad. I hope?
 

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If I wanted an old car I would buy ___ (fill in the blank).
That is EXACTLY the point.

When I buy a NEW car, like a 718, I want one with modern creature comforts. When I buy an OLD car I don't expect modern creature comforts. With the old car I can play with the clutch, gearbox, roll up windows, manual top, crappy AM radio, etc, etc, and etc. to my hearts content (and then probably some!). When I am going to the grocery store or driving 1,000+ miles on a trip I will take the modern car, PDK and all, thank you very much.
 

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If you liked to be more engaged with your vehicle than you should eliminate PDK, power steering and power brakes. No air condition just rolldown your windows manually. Forget power seats and power mirrors, power locks, adjust it and close it manually by hand. Do not use backup camera just turn your head around. I should also mention stereo radio tuning, forget it just tune the stations by hand and you are more engaged. Also, don’t forget to bring your maps for directions. With all the recommendations you definitely are more engaged with your vehicle as you prefer. 🤣😂😅
In other words...

Buy a 914.

Mid-engine handling.
with.
Manual trans
No power steering
No Power brakes
No Air conditioning, roll down the windows and take the roof off
No power seats, power mirrors, power locks.
No backup camera
Radio tune by hand, does have manual push buttons though.
Always have paper maps in the car. (But it doesn't matter, I'm never LOST, I'm just taking an ALTERNATE route.)

Maybe that is why I drive my 914 more than the Cayman S.

Glad you figured that out for me..
 

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That is EXACTLY the point.

When I buy a NEW car, like a 718, I want one with modern creature comforts. When I buy an OLD car I don't expect modern creature comforts. With the old car I can play with the clutch, gearbox, roll up windows, manual top, crappy AM radio, etc, etc, and etc. to my hearts content (and then probably some!). When I am going to the grocery store or driving 1,000+ miles on a trip I will take the modern car, PDK and all, thank you very much.
I think differently about rolling up windows vs. shifting gears. I've personally never gotten excited about a perfect window close. I don't personally get a lot of pleasure in the tactile feel of a window roller.

I've never dialed in a station on an AM radio and felt any sort of emotion from that. I don't feel a better connection to the music for having dialed that in.
 

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2021 718 Cayman GTS 4.0
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For those who prefer the manual, to each their own. But the PDK is used because of it's technological advancement. Which is why similar paddle shifting is used in F1, IndyCar & IMSA. The only hold out is NASCAR to use manual transmissions. And will probably soon switch over.
But why do F1 use paddle shifters when it is faster to let the machine do it for itself? Why does F1 have a finger clutch that is used to start the vehicle moving when there are faster and more reliable solutions? Why does F1 forbid driver aids like traction control? It's all resistance to technology that reduces the requirement for certain driver skills. They could easily design driverless F1 cars that would be faster than the current ones. It's a question of how far do you go.

Everyone has a different tolerance for technological advancement - Elon Musk is at one end and there are technology Luddites at the other. Most of us fall somewhere between. I am happy with traction control, ABS and PSM, provided it stays out of the way until I screw up. I don't want anything to do with Lane Keep assist or ACC. I enjoy the manual more than the PDK. YMMV.
 

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Most of us fall somewhere between. I am happy with traction control, ABS and PSM, provided it stays out of the way until I screw up. I don't want anything to do with Lane Keep assist or ACC. I enjoy the manual more than the PDK. YMMV.
Exactly! And it depends on what we are using the car for. When we're back in office and I need a DD again, it will very likely be an EV with a two speed automatic and a bunch of features to make my life comfortable and safe and easy. 100% that makes sense as a "get me to the office in this ridiculous traffic" car.

My own personal requirements for a weekend or after work sports car are quite different. Also, my requirements for a track car are different from a weekend sports car. So each has their own line wrt what we want to do ourselves vs done for us (or done to us :))

I'm just glad Porsche offers us this choice. Other companies don't. That, btw, is another argument for getting a manual Porsche right now. Your next McLaren or Ferrari or Lamborghini or whatever else you own, or aspire to own, will have a dual-clutch transmission. No options there.
 

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That is EXACTLY the point.

When I buy a NEW car, like a 718, I want one with modern creature comforts. When I buy an OLD car I don't expect modern creature comforts. With the old car I can play with the clutch, gearbox, roll up windows, manual top, crappy AM radio, etc, etc, and etc. to my hearts content (and then probably some!). When I am going to the grocery store or driving 1,000+ miles on a trip I will take the modern car, PDK and all, thank you very much.
So I take it you will be trading in your 718 soon for a Tesla with autopilot? Gas engines and driver input is so antiquated.

Your grouping of a manual transmission in with AM radio and roll-up windows is comical. Not sure if you are trolling or just naïve as to why people enjoy driving a car with a manual transmission.
 

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The PDK is a development of DSG and was designed for road cars.
Racing cars use faster shifting and more direct automated manual boxes that allow for flat shifting.
They also weigh a good deal less than twin clutch boxes!

Re PDK…..
I think they are best, either driven very slowly, or FLAT OUT with no sympathy. For anything in between, where any planning or subtlety are involved, then manual is better at everything (if the driver is fully competent)
I’ve driven all the Cay/ster versions, multiple Macan, 911.2, Panamera on road and some on the Silverstone Porsche track. PDK and manual.

I do enjoy a PDK from time to time, however generally I find them a bit meh. Too clumsy and compromised in too many ways.
We all know they are great at charging up through the ratios, but that’s mostly where it ends for me.
They’re a bit like a learner driver otherwise.

Engineering Limitations / Issues that annoy me are…..
Clutch is either in or out and often poorly managed.
This can make slow speed manoeuvres on gradients extremely tricky. Clutch damaging in the extreme.
Slow transition from forward to reverse are annoying and feel very old fashioned auto.
Every now and then, there will be a poorly executed delay, then a speedily grabbed gear with a clunk / shunt at slow speeds.
Ie : when you’re stopping, but can then see it’s actually clear to pull away.

All auto boxes suffer these things though to some extent.

Manual mode is best and most engaging of course, but the paddles are column mounted for fixed position steering. (Suited to flowing roads only and track use perfectly)
Once you’re amongst junctions and roundabouts, you can’t use them while winding on/off steering lock.
You then have to remember to switch out of manual, or plan to use the back to front gear ‘stick’
Larger fixed paddles are more suited to road use, as you always know where to find them.
In the ideal world, the paddles would be on a slip ring, that could locked/released for fixed position, or rotational steering.

Personal Peeves
All gear changes are essentially the same. Cookie cutter and boring to me.
There are many modes and strategies built in to suit your mood. This means my journeys include a good amount of time planning my next throttle / brake application, AROUND the drive mode I’m in. Either that, or selecting the mode that suits the next bit of road best. You have to leave it to do its thing, or plan to out think the design shortcomings along the way.

Kickdown is the most nasty sensation involved in driving to me! It’s like an idiot is in charge of the box!
Trying to accelerate in the wrong gear, then suddenly realising and changing down ratios is just hopeless.

If I decide to spin up the box a bit, then accelerate hard, I have to have planned in advance and clicked over to manual. Otherwise the box will just keep shuffling up the ratios as per boring normal.

Essentially, the box detracts from the natural ebb and flow of normal driving, as you have to plan and interact / defeat the ‘brain’

Either I’m needing to fiddle constantly, or just accept how the car wants to behave and adapt my driving to suit that.
The cars prefer the latter of course.

The whole ‘Lack of Engagement’ argument is of course valid, but not understood by some.

Faked Elements ‘Drama’
All drive and throttle modes except ‘Normal’ are just there to add showroom appeal and fake ‘drama’
Sport + is laughable and offers nothing other tan

The change up bumps/bangs are actually no faster. They are however a waste of time and are clutch abuse.
They’re unsettling for the chassis under load, so spoil fast driving. The shifts that are fastest, are the ones you can’t feel, as they’ve not put counterproductive energy into the chassis.

The down changes are often shocking! This is designed in so this can be felt more and people think that feels more connected.
The throttle blip is timed slightly incorrectly, so the driver feels the change is ‘Sporty’
This is programmed into all non GT cars PDK. They have the capability to make the changes imperceptible, but elect not to.
There is a momentary clutch drag and slight moment of unsettling acceleration on each down change.
Horrible on the brakes and SO destabilising on road and track alike. The lighter the model, the worse it is. Macan masks it better, due to its inertia.
This alone just stopped me enjoying the cars at speed.
Again, just clutch abuse and wear for no reason.
Manual mode changes nothing in this regard, as the blip comes a moment too soon.

A lot of this would see you fail an advanced driving test. No way any of the clutch control would fly with ROSPA (or similar) instructors.

The manual cars do also see some ecu gearbox and clutch interference.
The 981 GTS was most annoying!

718 GTS 2.5 gearbox and engine mapping were better (never mind the 4pot detractors)

The 4.0 GTS we have now is WAY better, with almost nothing artificial added. Bloody rev-match is still mandatory in most modes though! Although strangely, on manual cars, it’s programmed to near perfection.
I shall now go and see about getting a life 👀
 

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If you liked to be more engaged with your vehicle than you should eliminate PDK, power steering and power brakes. No air condition just rolldown your windows manually. Forget power seats and power mirrors, power locks, adjust it and close it manually by hand. Do not use backup camera just turn your head around. I should also mention stereo radio tuning, forget it just tune the stations by hand and you are more engaged. Also, don’t forget to bring your maps for directions. With all the recommendations you definitely are more engaged with your vehicle as you prefer. 🤣😂😅
You just described my 911 SC Euro @ 2300 lbs and 230 HP.... it is the most engaging car I've ever owned.. I wear it...it communicates with every input I direct..I can not only feel everything taking place I can hear it with no sound deadening.
I can hear the gears, the engine behind me and can feel everything taking place in the car.... THAT is engagement. When I hammer it I can drift the tail out by throttle control and steer with throttle control...that perfect point of balance that is an intangible that can't be switched on/off but only felt by theh seat of your pants...right foot....hands getting all of that direct rack and pinion input where one can feel the imperfections in the road...feel the grip or lack there of.
If you think what you described is 'bad' then you need an automatic with nannies ... perhaps a chauffeur .

p.s. My 718 is manual with no added nannies from base, manual seats and the least amount of widgets they make.... it is still not as engaging as my 911 but very nice.
Many Porsche drivers think they can drive when actually the car is driving for them....
 

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You just described my 911 SC Euro @ 2300 lbs and 230 HP.... it is the most engaging car I've ever owned.. I wear it...it communicates with every input I direct..I can not only feel everything taking place I can hear it with no sound deadening.
I can hear the gears, the engine behind me and can feel everything taking place in the car.... THAT is engagement. When I hammer it I can drift the tail out by throttle control and steer with throttle control...that perfect point of balance that is an intangible that can't be switched on/off but only felt by theh seat of your pants...right foot....hands getting all of that direct rack and pinion input where one can feel the imperfections in the road...feel the grip or lack there of.
If you think what you described is 'bad' then you need an automatic with nannies ... perhaps a chauffeur .
Agreed... sigh. makes me miss my 911SC.... Plenty of engagement even at 55 mph
 

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Agreed... sigh. makes me miss my 911SC.... Plenty of engagement even at 55 mph
I know what you mean about lost loves....this one stays. How does one heel and toe with the PDK... oh, and let's not forget rev matching for the rpm impaired :)

There is nothing wrong and many things great about all of the developments...the new cars are amazing.
However, much of those 'things' are actually correcting driver input at different levels... safe yes, and that is a good thing, but every one of those nannies reduces the drivers input and engagement if he/she is a serious 'driver'. Each's and other's....
 

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So I take it you will be trading in your 718 soon for a Tesla with autopilot? Gas engines and driver input is so antiquated.

Your grouping of a manual transmission in with AM radio and roll-up windows is comical. Not sure if you are trolling or just naïve as to why people enjoy driving a car with a manual transmission.
To each his own. If the Teslas had a range and recharge time comparable to the ICE vehicles I would have one.

I am not alone in not wanting a manual transmission. Only five percent of new vehicles sold today are manual. Most vehicles are not even offered with a manual option. If they were so desirable everybody would want one. If you like the manual transmission, great, get one. I have one. It is a PITA to drive in heavy traffic and in hilly cities. For me I will take one of my cars with the automatic if I have to drive very far.
 

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I'll see your choke and crank up windows and raise you with side screens, pop fastener top and a suspension that requires greasing every 1000 miles. :)

Apologies for the thread drift...

View attachment 36275
Love the Morgan. As an MGA owner I think roll up windows and negative ground are just fads that will never catch on.
Tire Wheel Car Vehicle Hood
 

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To each his own. If the Teslas had a range and recharge time comparable to the ICE vehicles I would have one.

I am a alone in not wanting a manual transmission. Only five percent of new vehicles sold today are manual. Most vehicles are not even offered with a manual option. If they were so desirable everybody would want one. If you like the manual transmission, great, get one. I have one. It is a PITA to drive in heavy traffic and in hilly cities. For me I will take one of my cars with the automatic if I have to drive very far.
Oh, I get the traffic angle but we are discussing different birds here...ease of operation and depth of engagement are different animals.
There are Porsche drivers that do not know how to drive a manual. Nowadays it is considered one of the best anti theft features going given the age of car thieves....
 

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To each his own. If the Teslas had a range and recharge time comparable to the ICE vehicles I would have one.

I am not alone in not wanting a manual transmission. Only five percent of new vehicles sold today are manual. Most vehicles are not even offered with a manual option. If they were so desirable everybody would want one. If you like the manual transmission, great, get one. I have one. It is a PITA to drive in heavy traffic and in hilly cities. For me I will take one of my cars with the automatic if I have to drive very far.
I thought we were talking about Porsche sports cars here, not the entire automotive landscape. Cars are just utensils to get from A to B for 99% of people. The touchscreen tech, audio, autonomous features, etc are much more important to people than the transmission features. The average car buyer would have no idea what a dual clutch transmission is nor care. They just want to put it in "D" and go.

Anyway, clearly you dont get any joy out of rowing your own gears which is fine. Its certainly not for everyone like you mentioned. Its just odd to me that, assuming you are a car enthusiast (you have a 718 and joined an online forum so you must have some level of enthusiasm towards driving), that you cant even fathom why anyone would want to row their own gears.
 
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