[Snrubel]

So my wife and I spent a few days in Atlanta and decided to take several driving experience sessions; mine were as follows and in this order:

1) base Cayman
2) 911 T (master the manual)
3) 911 Carrera S
4) Cayman GTS
5) A demo by the instructor in a GT3 RS.

I now feel fairly knowledgeable about the differences. As background I have been to a couple of BMW performance driving schools. If you have not, then #1) you should as soon as possible and #2) I highly recommend this before PDE to get the most out of your sessions. I’m definitely not a pro driver. I had the same pro driver with me all 4 sessions and he said I am well above average, especially on manual transmissions and drifting, which is probably my goal in life anyway so that’s great. But that at least gives you some background for my long-ish comments below.

I’ll just throw out random thoughts/comments...

The 911 handles really well. It is not ass-heavy. I expected it to be heavy like an M5,M6, but it is not. PDCC is nice on the track but can’t imagine it’d be worth much on regular roads. Caymans don’t seem to need PDCC to be really good — or at least I never missed it, especially on the GTS.

Caymans are hard to drift; even the instructors think this; it’s a mid engine thing (does not want to rotate and stay rotated). However, I finally “mastered” drifting the Cayman GTS in that I could regularly get 2 or 3 laps drifted under control. The GTS is much easier to drift than the base for me; the instructors claim it is the additional lag in the base. I tend to agree. It is very tricky to get the right amount of throttle tip-in to begin rotation. The additional low-end immediate torque of the GTS greatly eases the transition to power oversteer. Argue that if you want but I’ve been working it back-to-back with professional supervision You give a base Cayman a dose of throttle at 15 mph and there is a lag before your input becomes tire rotation; in the GTS it is much more immediate (similar to Carrera S), which makes controlling the initial power oversteer much more predictable.

Manuals are a lot more fun. They are also much much harder for the track without doubt. Trying it back-to-back makes it obvious. A good PDK driver is going to beat a manual driver on lap times in the same car I am certain. However, I bought a manual Cayman S and the drive experience confirmed that I made the right decision for me as an everyday driver and fun car. I got better at manual rev matching during the experience and learned the right way — and getting it right is both fun and satisfying. On the track there is a lot going on and shifting is a nuisance of sorts that does not make you better or faster; on the street the shifting IS the thing that’s mostly going on and it’s fun! 6-spd for me!

The 911S did not feel faster than the Cayman GTS to me. However, both are really fast and I’ll bet 99% of the people on this board, certainly including me, are not anywhere near as good as the car. Both of these machines are scary fast when you floor it and hold it for about 8-10 seconds anywhere near curves, like the PDE track.

The 911 GT3 RS is more car than I’m interested in. It was impressive with the instructor as the pilot, but I will never be good enough to exploit that sort of car.

Apparently most people do not do what we did and take 3 or 4 experiences spread over multiple days. We treated it like a mini driving school. I had the instructor give me continual feedback and before it was over I had improved my skills considerably on the track, drifting, and handling their crazy kickplate.

If you are considering multiple sessions there do not stack them all in one day — spread them out. The instructors all mentioned that the people who come there and try three in a day are just worn out and regret it. Even two will wear you out if you’re not used to it. The exercises are both physically and mentally draining (but fun and exhilarating too).

The Kimpton-Overland hotel is right beside the Porsche building. Stay there and you just walk 100 yards to your “classes”.

Bring your spouse. Sign them up for the base cars, which are still really fast. Also put them in a demo lap in just a base car, which is more than crazy enough if they are not interested in a GT3. The instructors are really good and will not push the driver more than the driver wants. You can do both these for around $450 and will be money well spent. Then you can go back while your spouse hangs out on the hotel top floor open balcony-thing with a bar and watches... Just saying, it is fun to watch the cars flying around down below, especially after you’ve been in one yourself and ‘get it’, and there is a continual stream of jets landing and taking off right by the hotel.

In the end the Cayman is the more rewarding car to drive in my opinion. After my 911 drives I was thinking, “great, now I’m liking this 911, didn’t expect to, and am going to want one.” Then I went back into the Cayman GTS and immediately could tell it was more agile and still crazy fast. But they are more similar overall than I thought they would be.

The sound: Caymans sound great. No one even discussed this. They sound mean and serious under full throttle. The 911 certainly sounds good, but not enough to matter on the track. One thing that’s clear after comparison is that the Cayman has more engine noise since it’s in there with you (the engine that is). Some of that is probably Soundaktor, which I’ve unplugged on my still-not-broken-in Cayman S, so can’t comment there yet.

Oh, and we didn’t eat at the fancier restaurant on site. Tried once but couldn’t get reservations. But honestly the sandwiches at the little on-site cafe were good quality and reasonably priced — especially considering that the ‘experiences’ are not cheap. Also, there are numerous good restaurants within a mile of the hotel.

I hope this is all helpful to someone... So feel free to ask questions if you have any.

 

[718S]

Sounds like a lot of fun. I can’t see racing my cayman S for a while so this would be really cool!

So I looked at the website and have a couple questions:

Do you have to book/pay for the demo lap(s) in the GT3 RS?
I'd love to do the mid/rear engine option and instead of paying for the GT3 @$875, a demo might be best.
My wife would likely come- did you visit anything else while there or was this the primary reason for trip?
I'm thinking of maybe fall time as it's approaching summer and its go to be muggy there. Did you consider other locations? Or is Atlanta the best of them?
Did you do any of the tours?

 

[RotorOver]

So my wife and I spent a few days in Atlanta and decided to take several driving experience sessions; mine were as follows and in this order:

1) base Cayman
2) 911 T (master the manual)
3) 911 Carrera S
4) Cayman GTS
5) A demo by the instructor in a GT3 RS.

Sounds like a blast! So, what did you think of the 911 T as compared to the S/GTS. I have a manual CS with PTV & PASM and interested in the comparison. With the power-to-weight does it feel slower? What about handling? I imagine the PDE 911Ts don’t have rear wheel steering.

 

[Porsche2018]

@Snrubel when you get a chance post some pictures; sounds like an amazing experience.

 

[wriggly]

OP's write up was so enticing it's got me wanting to go.

 

[_Juan]

So my wife and I spent a few days in Atlanta and decided to take several driving experience sessions; mine were as follows and in this order:

1) base Cayman
2) 911 T (master the manual)
3) 911 Carrera S
4) Cayman GTS
5) A demo by the instructor in a GT3 RS.

I now feel fairly knowledgeable about the differences. As background I have been to a couple of BMW performance driving schools. If you have not, then #1) you should as soon as possible and #2) I highly recommend this before PDE to get the most out of your sessions. I’m definitely not a pro driver. I had the same pro driver with me all 4 sessions and he said I am well above average, especially on manual transmissions and drifting, which is probably my goal in life anyway so that’s great. But that at least gives you some background for my long-ish comments below.

I’ll just throw out random thoughts/comments...

The 911 handles really well. It is not ass-heavy. I expected it to be heavy like an M5,M6, but it is not. PDCC is nice on the track but can’t imagine it’d be worth much on regular roads. Caymans don’t seem to need PDCC to be really good — or at least I never missed it, especially on the GTS.

Caymans are hard to drift; even the instructors think this; it’s a mid engine thing (does not want to rotate and stay rotated). However, I finally “mastered” drifting the Cayman GTS in that I could regularly get 2 or 3 laps drifted under control. The GTS is much easier to drift than the base for me; the instructors claim it is the additional lag in the base. I tend to agree. It is very tricky to get the right amount of throttle tip-in to begin rotation. The additional low-end immediate torque of the GTS greatly eases the transition to power oversteer. Argue that if you want but I’ve been working it back-to-back with professional supervision You give a base Cayman a dose of throttle at 15 mph and there is a lag before your input becomes tire rotation; in the GTS it is much more immediate (similar to Carrera S), which makes controlling the initial power oversteer much more predictable.

Manuals are a lot more fun. They are also much much harder for the track without doubt. Trying it back-to-back makes it obvious. A good PDK driver is going to beat a manual driver on lap times in the same car I am certain. However, I bought a manual Cayman S and the drive experience confirmed that I made the right decision for me as an everyday driver and fun car. I got better at manual rev matching during the experience and learned the right way — and getting it right is both fun and satisfying. On the track there is a lot going on and shifting is a nuisance of sorts that does not make you better or faster; on the street the shifting IS the thing that’s mostly going on and it’s fun! 6-spd for me!

The 911S did not feel faster than the Cayman GTS to me. However, both are really fast and I’ll bet 99% of the people on this board, certainly including me, are not anywhere near as good as the car. Both of these machines are scary fast when you floor it and hold it for about 8-10 seconds anywhere near curves, like the PDE track.

The 911 GT3 RS is more car than I’m interested in. It was impressive with the instructor as the pilot, but I will never be good enough to exploit that sort of car.

Apparently most people do not do what we did and take 3 or 4 experiences spread over multiple days. We treated it like a mini driving school. I had the instructor give me continual feedback and before it was over I had improved my skills considerably on the track, drifting, and handling their crazy kickplate.

If you are considering multiple sessions there do not stack them all in one day — spread them out. The instructors all mentioned that the people who come there and try three in a day are just worn out and regret it. Even two will wear you out if you’re not used to it. The exercises are both physically and mentally draining (but fun and exhilarating too).

The Kimpton-Overland hotel is right beside the Porsche building. Stay there and you just walk 100 yards to your “classes”.

Bring your spouse. Sign them up for the base cars, which are still really fast. Also put them in a demo lap in just a base car, which is more than crazy enough if they are not interested in a GT3. The instructors are really good and will not push the driver more than the driver wants. You can do both these for around $450 and will be money well spent. Then you can go back while your spouse hangs out on the hotel top floor open balcony-thing with a bar and watches... Just saying, it is fun to watch the cars flying around down below, especially after you’ve been in one yourself and ‘get it’, and there is a continual stream of jets landing and taking off right by the hotel.

In the end the Cayman is the more rewarding car to drive in my opinion. After my 911 drives I was thinking, “great, now I’m liking this 911, didn’t expect to, and am going to want one.” Then I went back into the Cayman GTS and immediately could tell it was more agile and still crazy fast. But they are more similar overall than I thought they would be.

The sound: Caymans sound great. No one even discussed this. They sound mean and serious under full throttle. The 911 certainly sounds good, but not enough to matter on the track. One thing that’s clear after comparison is that the Cayman has more engine noise since it’s in there with you (the engine that is). Some of that is probably Soundaktor, which I’ve unplugged on my still-not-broken-in Cayman S, so can’t comment there yet.

Oh, and we didn’t eat at the fancier restaurant on site. Tried once but couldn’t get reservations. But honestly the sandwiches at the little on-site cafe were good quality and reasonably priced — especially considering that the ‘experiences’ are not cheap. Also, there are numerous good restaurants within a mile of the hotel.

I hope this is all helpful to someone... So feel free to ask questions if you have any.

I thank you, sir! We're in Charlotte, and have friends in ATL. I mentioned this to my wife. Guess what my Father's Day Present is now?

 

[Nosmo]

@Snrubel - thank you. This is on my bucket list of things to do in Atlanta on my next trip to the USA. I'll be doing PEC Le Mans (base 718C) in France late August which I'll write up afterwards.

 

[Snrubel]

Sounds like a lot of fun. I can’t see racing my cayman S for a while so this would be really cool!

So I looked at the website and have a couple questions:

Do you have to book/pay for the demo lap(s) in the GT3 RS?
I'd love to do the mid/rear engine option and instead of paying for the GT3 @$875, a demo might be best.
My wife would likely come- did you visit anything else while there or was this the primary reason for trip?
I'm thinking of maybe fall time as it's approaching summer and its go to be muggy there. Did you consider other locations? Or is Atlanta the best of them?
Did you do any of the tours?

Sorry been traveling back home, so will answer questions now.

The GT3 demo is $100. It’s worth it. And I’d rather demo the GT3 than drive it. Your wife (unless she’s into this stuff) does not need a GT3 demo to be happy; however, you might just so you know what it’s all about. You will have to demo as your very last thing after your drives, because this is their policy.

There are a lot of fun things to do on Atlanta, like any city. We went to a lot of little breweries and had a nice beer during the afternoons off. As far as the “tour” of the facility, you don’t need it; you will want to budget about an hour at least to look through all the displays at the Porsche HQ. There is a museum, gift shop, various random displays, and cool things like a new Speedster, new Macan, new 911, etc. Also, we never ended up with time, but literally everyone said that the Atlanta Aquarium is interesting.

There is a nice shaded place to sit while watching other people drive. You can get a nice drink/snack and hang out there, so if you (for example) do a joint morning session in a base Cayman or 911S where you both drive, then I think your wife will probably be happy hanging out while you do another 90 minute session later. The constant landing of jets and wailing of engines on the track makes an interesting environment — and the viewing area is elevated above the action. It is well designed.

We went to Atlanta because it is closer to us, so CA may be fine too, but with the combo of hotel, HQ, and track right there together, well that’s pretty cool.

So it was 90 degrees and sunny every day this week, but the shade and breeze it was not hot. I’m sure it’s worse in August than late May, but even then there is an inside lounge too.

 

[Snrubel]

Sounds like a blast! So, what did you think of the 911 T as compared to the S/GTS. I have a manual CS with PTV & PASM and interested in the comparison. With the power-to-weight does it feel slower? What about handling? I imagine the PDE 911Ts don’t have rear wheel steering.

I will say on this that it is hard to notice any difference in T and S during the craziness that is the skid pad, kick plate, instructor pushing me around the track to go faster, improve my line, etc. Now I had asked for continual feedback from him, so you may or may not want pushed to go faster, but I did. I told him I wanted this to be about me improving as a driver — like a mini-school of sorts.

The T had carbon buckets, the S did not. The T was a manual, the S was not. I’d say in my 3 hours of those two cars that those influences were far bigger than anything else on S vs T. If you went out there just to compare those two cars then you would probably pick up on more differences.

I will say that PDCC made a noticeable, but subtle, difference on the track on the 911 S; I did not notice it on the T one way or the other, but then I drove the T first. But these things are more subtle than you would think I believe. I decided that if I were spec’ing a 911 that I would NOT get PDCC because a 911 is already really good without it, particularly for street use. Now if the money is no big deal, then sure, but otherwise I think I’d rarely engage it, kinda like I rarely engage sport PASM because normal is just so good. This coming from a guy who just ordered his Cayman S with sport chrono, PTV, and PASM.

Which reminds me, the Cayman GTS is really good; but could I tell PTV was on there? Nope. But possibly the limited slip diff contributed to the relative ease of holding a drift in the Cayman GTS vs base. And the PTV was possibly what made that Cayman GTS feel so right/perfect after coming off the also-really-good 911 S. On balance, I’d still spec PTV on my Cayman S. There’s magic in there and I wouldn’t risk taking the edge off that magic by deselecting PTV, at least for me. Now, that said, a base Cayman is also really good...

Did I mention that the 718 sounds really good when pushed hard? And the steering is just perfect on the track. Sport+ with the PASM (not sure if my GTS was Sport PASM or not) is just the bomb on a track.

 

[Snrubel]

Pictures: at night is pic from top of hotel lounge; various pics of my wife getting in/out of yellow base and GTS caymans; view from balcony/porch at center; pic of getting ready for GT3 demo lap

 

[Snrubel]

Here are a few more: (not sure why some get rotated...). One showing how close you are to airport; one of track detail; one I took of some of my current vehicles (Macan GTS, Cayman S, M240 vert; 740i).

 

[Grozk17]

Very nice overview. I took delivery of my cayman there Mar 2017 and both wife and I took 90 min sessions. Very technical track with little no no run off. I was in a PDK car and I can’t image getting out of 2nd gear in a manual on that track. I also agree that it is a physical work out (and I’m in good aerobic and strength condition) and dividing multiple sessions is a must (I was actually a little nauseous by the end of my track session-I was moving quick for me). I’ve been to driving school at Porsche I Birmingham and even thought it is a much longer track they limit each session to about 20 min (then break for 10-15 min) to limit fatigue.

 

[718S]

Are you actually running the track the entire 90 minutes?

 

[Snrubel]

Grozk17 - I would love to hear more about the classes in Birmingham. I’ll probably do that next.

A few more thoughts/comments that might be of interest as I think of them:

1) On breaking in new Porsches... The instructors we had both said that they have to break in all new vehicles for 100 miles before they can be used. The more senior guy said it was for the transmission, not the engine. They short shift them and work through all the gears. Apparently this is a somewhat boring job that gets assigned to them. Please note that these guys are not engineers, but their guidance comes from somewhere within Porsche. All GT cars get 500 miles instead of 100 miles. We talked about the 2000 mile thing and their recommendations were to follow the guidance, particularly if you’re wanting it to last. I’m not rendering an opinion here, just saying...

2) General thought: it feels a little bit stupid/embarrassing/insert-your-word to talk about things like “let’s try PDCC off/on”, “PASM normal/sport”, “sport vs sport+”, when you are out there with guys who are so much better than you that they could lap you in your GT3 with a base Cayman. To them it probably seems like you are dealing with trivialities when obviously the main problem is that YOU DON’T KNOW HOW TO DRIVE!. So maybe it’s just me, but it sorta puts all these debates about options into perspective when they could take their base Cayman and whoop up on you in your 911 Turbo with all the 4-wheel-steering, blah, blah, on the track. We endlessly debate PTV and sport-PSM and they don’t even think about which car has it and which does not because they know how to drive, which is 95% of the game and which option any given car has is about the other 5%. Again, I get it, and I bought all the little add-ons too, but I think the perspective seems of interest.

3) I overheard one driver say to the other in private just as casual conversation that he liked the Cayman better than the Boxster because it was stiffer. We all already know this at some level, but these guys can actually feel it.

 

[Snrubel]

Are you actually running the track the entire 90 minutes?

Pretty much. Going from one area to the next, mostly driven by what you want to do.

 

[Snrubel]

Apologize that I didn’t get all this together, but here’s a bit more on scheduling that I would probably have found of interest on budgeting time. I’d suggest the following for time allowances:

1) get there 30 minutes early at front gate at least.

2) allow the following times:
- 10 minutes - getting yourself oriented
- 10 minutes - administrative trivialities/check-in.
- 15 minutes - gift shop
- 20 minutes - checking out random things on walls and displays
- 15 minutes (or more) looking at new cars sitting around inside and outside
- 20 minutes for museum — add more if Porsche racing is of interest to you

That’s 1.5 hours. So if you have an 11a driving experience I’d get there by 9:30 at least if you want to leave at 12:30 when you bring your car back. Obviously you can spread your time around however suits your schedule, but I’d say an extra 1.5 hours would cover a non-enthusiast spouse who doesn’t want to get bored — double that for a real enthusiast.

So another example would be to arrive at 10:30a for an 11a experience; car back in at 12:30; allow 30-60 minutes for lunch; then another hour for the other things I listed; back to hotel for a bit; then out for drinks/etc and early dinner to beat Atlanta traffic (and you’re going opposite way of traffic if you’re heading INTO the city.

I recommend Three Taverns Craft Brewery, where they have a cool setup, good beers, and a nice place to taste them. Torched Hop Brewing Company was also really cool and across the street is Mary Mac’s Tea Room which is famous for southern food (sorta like Cracker Barrel without the gift shop, only 100 times better). We don’t normally eat Southern food when out, but this place was exceptional and came recommended by our instructors. Also Louisiana Bistreaux is less than a mile from Porsche, with no traffic issues, and was really good for Cajun.

 

[aeronca65tl]

So my wife and I spent a few days in Atlanta and decided to take several driving experience sessions;...….

As most of you probably know, they give you a "free" half-day on the track if you buy a new Porsche.

My wife and I flew down to the Atlanta PEC Center from NJ in November 2017 to collect our new 2018 Cayman.

I was curious about the track training and the training circuit at Atlanta. Truth be told the circuit is fairly small and twisty so speeds are modest (which makes perfect sense).

I really enjoyed the wet skid pad and "kick-plate" training. Our instructor interviewed me first and I explained that I wanted the bulk of the training time to be reserved for my wife. I have been wheel-to-wheel racing since 1973 and I have been instructing at race schools for over 15 years. So I just wanted a "taste" of the training. Still, it was great fun: it's always fun when you get to beat on someone else's car! Our track car was a base 2.0 PDK Cayman just like the new one we were picking up.
The kick plate provides an especially good illustration of the benefits of the electronic nannies (when compared between turned "on" and "off").

My wife had a hoot. I've tried (gently) for years to get her to do some instructional track work with me. But I guess sitting with an instructor she didn't know took some pressure off and she had an excellent time. I know she will never join me competitively on the track (and that's fine....we need her as a our race registrar). But now she has a better understanding of what track driving is like and why I enjoy it so much.

Here's photos of her on track (the second shot is her doing a spin induced by the kick plate).

There are some other photos of our PEC delivery here (although most of this is just about our road trip).

http://vintageracer.tripod.com/trip.html

 

[Yuro]

Sounds like a blast! So, what did you think of the 911 T as compared to the S/GTS. I have a manual CS with PTV & PASM and interested in the comparison. With the power-to-weight does it feel slower? What about handling? I imagine the PDE 911Ts don’t have rear wheel steering.

Rotor:

I'm cutting in here...sue me!

I had an '06 Cayman S for 10 years and put many, many good mods on it. It was a pretty fast car and tons of fun to drive. Coil-overs, DSC PASM brain, variable locking diff, yada, yada. I loved it.

Well, money burning a hole in my pocket, not many mods left to put on it, gradual and subtle degradation of stuff with time and miles...who knows? I decided I need something new. I didn't even look at the 718 because of the 4 cylinder and because I'd read comparisons of it's sound to a Subaru WRX. Soo....

...I bought a 911T. They're gorgeous. Mine had Black Sportex "911T" interior...white gages, little white pinstripes on the seat cushions, GT silver exterior with grey 20" Carrera Sport rims, 4 wheel steering, sport chono, sport exhaust, sport PASM.

The 3.0 turbo 6 is a GREAT engine. The smaller turbos have less lag. 375 hp and that wide twin turbo torque band. No, they are not slow.

That said.... I traded it a few weeks ago for a Cayman GTS. 911s will never be as good. It took 2 miles and I knew.
I don't care which is faster, I love driving a good Cayman...and the GTS lacks only 10 HP over the T. It's lighter with lower CG and lower polar moment and almost all the weight is in the middle. It doesn't rely on giant tires to get the performance and balance. For the reasons I own a Porsche, the Cayman is better.

 

[Guaji]

Rotor:

I'm cutting in here...sue me!

I had an '06 Cayman S for 10 years and put many, many good mods on it. It was a pretty fast car and tons of fun to drive. Coil-overs, DSC PASM brain, variable locking diff, yada, yada. I loved it.

Well, money burning a hole in my pocket, not many mods left to put on it, gradual and subtle degradation of stuff with time and miles...who knows? I decided I need something new. I didn't even look at the 718 because of the 4 cylinder and because I'd read comparisons of it's sound to a Subaru WRX. Soo....

...I bought a 911T. They're gorgeous. Mine had Black Sportex "911T" interior...white gages, little white pinstripes on the seat cushions, GT silver exterior with grey 20" Carrera Sport rims, 4 wheel steering, sport chono, sport exhaust, sport PASM.

The 3.0 turbo 6 is a GREAT engine. The smaller turbos have less lag. 375 hp and that wide twin turbo torque band. No, they are not slow.

That said.... I traded it a few weeks ago for a Cayman GTS. 911s will never be as good. It took 2 miles and I knew.
I don't care which is faster, I love driving a good Cayman...and the GTS lacks only 10 HP over the T. It's lighter with lower CG and lower polar moment and almost all the weight is in the middle. It doesn't rely on giant tires to get the performance and balance. For the reasons I own a Porsche, the Cayman is better.

I did the opposite of you. I went from a 718 Cayman GTS to a Carrera T. Maybe I should take a test drive in a GTS since it’s be awhile.....though probably better not to! I’ll go broke changing cars too often

 

[jdstein11]

I used the Atlanta PEC as my test drive before purchasing my 718 Boxster, although I arranged for a 718 Boxster S at the PEC. Great skill building opportunities and yes, had lots of trouble with drifting, but all of the other circuits were a blast and taught me 1) just how much help the car provides without making it obvious; 2) how much fun it is to drive these cars the way they were meant to be driven; and 3) that I wanted to do that again and again, so I bought one.

Now I'm trying to convince my group to schedule a leadership offsite at the PEC and throw in 90 minutes on track as part of it! (praying)