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You might want to temper your smug virtuous feeling just a bit.....

I few of my annual golfing buddies are environmental scientists, engineers and partners at a consulting firm that specializes in nuclear engineering, as well as solar/wind renewable energy. Bill Gates with Terrapower is a typical client. So here's what our post 36 holes Friday night discussion included a few weeks ago: First, in 50%+ of the US, your EV is being powered by electricity generated by burning fossil fuels. Second, the environmental impact of lithium mining and refining makes uranium mining and refining look like Betty Crocker baking a cake. Third, the future disposal and recycling of spent lithium batteries, along with all of the other by products of EV batteries, makes Yuca Mountain for spent nuclear fuel look like a walk in the park.

I am NOT suggesting that EV isn't environmentally preferable to ICE or hybrids. But I think the smug virtuosity of some EV proponents conveniently forgets - or is ignorant of - other environmentally damaging issues that my golfing buddies are trying to solve.

Not a sermon, just a thought.
That’s the problem with the written word. My comment that you highlighted above was to me obviously ironic / sarcastic but never mind. I am fully aware of the limitations of EVs but they still have huge benefits in the right application. My whole point is that the answer as to which power source is ‘best’ is ‘it depends’ - on your use case, motivation, source of energy, ability to charge at home, etc.
Unless you or your friends know better, there is no panacea. We just need to do our own research and do the best we can…
 

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That’s the problem with the written word. My comment that you highlighted above was to me obviously ironic / sarcastic but never mind. I am fully aware of the limitations of EVs but they still have huge benefits in the right application. My whole point is that the answer as to which power source is ‘best’ is ‘it depends’ - on your use case, motivation, source of energy, ability to charge at home, etc.
Unless you or your friends know better, there is no panacea. We just need to do our own research and do the best we can…
Agree, and I should have tempered my comments a bit in recognition of your satire. And you are absolutely correct, there is no panacea.

Cheers.
 

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You might want to temper your smug virtuous feeling just a bit.....

I few of my annual golfing buddies are environmental scientists, engineers and partners at a consulting firm that specializes in nuclear engineering, as well as solar/wind renewable energy. Bill Gates with Terrapower is a typical client. So here's what our post 36 holes Friday night discussion included a few weeks ago: First, in 50%+ of the US, your EV is being powered by electricity generated by burning fossil fuels. Second, the environmental impact of lithium mining and refining makes uranium mining and refining look like Betty Crocker baking a cake. Third, the future disposal and recycling of spent lithium batteries, along with all of the other by products of EV batteries, makes Yuca Mountain for spent nuclear fuel look like a walk in the park.

I am NOT suggesting that EV isn't environmentally preferable to ICE or hybrids. But I think the smug virtuosity of some EV proponents conveniently forgets - or is ignorant of - other environmentally damaging issues that my golfing buddies are trying to solve.

Not a sermon, just a thought.
1: on coal alone an EV is same emissions per mile. on NG it aint even close. on renewable well yea. coal is under 20% right now and dropping.
2: lithium comes outta the ground once and is used over and over again. see 3:
3: tesla is over 90% lithium recovery right now. redwood materials/ that place in NY ramping up.

Some people will fight the transition to EVs until they're forced to adapt.
Within the next 5 years there will effectively be a circular supply chain for EV batteries. Everyone thinks of recycling resulting in a shittier copy of the original product. But when it comes to batteries, the more you recycle them, the purer the elements as you're effectively sieving out the impurities every cycle.
 

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Some people will fight the transition to EVs until they're forced to adapt.
Yep, they have made up their minds and cherry pick the one or two articles/studies that contradict 10000 others.
It has been proven over and over again that even an EV running its life on coal has less of an environmental impact than an ICE car.
If that doesn't fit your views, tough luck. The transition is in full swing and is not going to be reversed.

Funny story:
Last week I ran into an aggressive yobbo in a RAM 2500 6.7L diesel barge on my rear bumper.
At the lights he needed to show his superiority. Lots of noise, lots of black smoke but no speed whatsoever.
I gave him a 2 sec head start and launched the Polestar. Flew by him effortlessly without any fuss or noise.
After that, he continued to pretend to run me off the road for a few kilometers.
That's the kind of person I envision when thinking about EV-haters that refuse to accept the reality and try to fight it with cherry picked 'facts'.

I bet 95% of these guys have never even sat in a mid-high end EV.
 

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Yep, they have made up their minds and cherry pick the one or two articles/studies that contradict 10000 others.
It has been proven over and over again that even an EV running its life on coal has less of an environmental impact than an ICE car.
If that doesn't fit your views, tough luck. The transition is in full swing and is not going to be reversed.

Funny story:
Last week I ran into an aggressive yobbo in a RAM 2500 6.7L diesel barge on my rear bumper.
At the lights he needed to show his superiority. Lots of noise, lots of black smoke but no speed whatsoever.
I gave him a 2 sec head start and launched the Polestar. Flew by him effortlessly without any fuss or noise.
After that, he continued to pretend to run me off the road for a few kilometers.
That's the kind of person I envision when thinking about EV-haters that refuse to accept the reality and try to fight it with cherry picked 'facts'.

I bet 95% of these guys have never even sat in a mid-high end EV.
They allow RAM 2500's in the Netherlands??

I won't disagree that EV is the direction the world is heading, but in the meantime, let me offer a more positive diesel story with our 2018 BMW 540d M-Sport X-Drive. A few weekends ago, we did a 1,000 mile roundtrip road trip for our daughters delayed 2020 college graduation. Had 4 adults in my car and two of our daughters classmates caravanned in a Toyota Prius. At the end of the trip, our 540d had averaged 43.7 mpg. The Prius averaged 45 mpg. Nearly identical, in spite of the fact that the BMW is "only" EPA rated at 26/36 and the Prius is rated 58/53. The drive was 65% interstate highway, 35% two lane secondary roads and a lot of short hops in the small college town and between the hotel 20 miles away. The BMW hit 47+ mpg on the highway at 75+/- mph. The Prius was barely getting 40 mpg and struggling to maintain speed on the hilly sections.

And, by the way, the 540d, with 261 hp and 458 ft-lbs of torque is as quick to 60-70 mph as my former 2001 BMW M5 6-speed. Plus it is AWD, fine in light snow and rain, and with it's 17.5 gallon tank, has a highway range of 750 miles.

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They allow RAM 2500's in the Netherlands??

I won't disagree that EV is the direction the world is heading, but in the meantime, let me offer a more positive diesel story with our 2018 BMW 540d M-Sport X-Drive. A few weekends ago, we did a 1,000 mile roundtrip road trip for our daughters delayed 2020 college graduation. Had 4 adults in my car and two of our daughters classmates caravanned in a Toyota Prius. At the end of the trip, our 540d had averaged 43.7 mpg. The Prius averaged 45 mpg. Nearly identical, in spite of the fact that the BMW is "only" EPA rated at 26/36 and the Prius is rated 58/53. The drive was 65% interstate highway, 35% two lane secondary roads and a lot of short hops in the small college town and between the hotel 20 miles away. The BMW hit 47+ mpg on the highway at 75+/- mph. The Prius was barely getting 40 mpg and struggling to maintain speed on the hilly sections.

And, by the way, the 540d, with 261 hp and 458 ft-lbs of torque is as quick to 60-70 mph as my former 2001 BMW M5 6-speed. Plus it is AWD, fine in light snow and rain, and with it's 17.5 gallon tank, has a highway range of 750 miles.

View attachment 43727
your car is awesome. that's a fact. just not woke enough

i think you should condemn it publicly so as to virtue signal on a Porsche forum about how environmentally conscious our $100's of thousands of dollars in cars are.

:D

I would love a diesel big boy like that. Awesome machine
 

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Electric Cars Are Cleaner Even When Powered by Coal
  • Emissions from EVs 40% lower than gasoline cars, BNEF says
  • Researcher expects difference to grow as clean energy expands
what about in 8 years when the vehicle needs a new battery that takes "500,000 lbs of mining rubble" to re-create?

the production of EV's is a horrendous waste of "carbon" and pollution.
 

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what about in 8 years when the vehicle needs a new battery that takes "500,000 lbs of mining rubble" to re-create?

the production of EV's is a horrendous waste of "carbon" and pollution.
You just assumed the batteries need to be replaced every 8 years which is nonsensical. They're warrantied usually for 10 years and there's no evidence a modern chemistry battery needs to be replaced at even the decade mark.

You're also assuming that end of life battery just goes to a landfill and ignoring my last comment highlighting places like Redwood Materials that recycles them into new batteries. It basically turns into a circle of life as old batteries are recycled and become purer with each recycling as EV adoption picks up.

Show me your scientific study to combat the scientific study that I linked to there instead of conjecture.
 

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Electric Cars Are Cleaner Even When Powered by Coal
  • Emissions from EVs 40% lower than gasoline cars, BNEF says
  • Researcher expects difference to grow as clean energy expands
In the UK today the electricity generation distribution at 17.10 was as follows. You will note the preponderance of wind and solar and the total absence of coal. Need to work on gas though. **** those pesky facts……
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From the study:

"Under current conditions, driving an electric car is better for the climate than conventional petrol cars in 95% of the world, the study finds.
The only exceptions are countries such as Poland, where the electricity network is still mostly based on coal-fired power generation."


Okay, so the title is misleading and so is the original statement that mining lithium to build electric cars powered exclusively by coal generated electricity produces less carbon emissions than an ICE. It never really passed the smell test, but then again, men can now get pregnant so you never know.

Furthermore, what does "in 95% of the world" mean when almost 40% of the world's electricity comes from non-renewable coal/oil? My guess is that it doesn't factor in where the electricity demand increases would be sourced from.

Anyhow, I'm all for the EV - especially for commuting in large cities, it's a no brainer.

To summarize: No, mining lithium to build electric cars powered exclusively by coal generated electricity DOES NOT produces less carbon emissions than an ICE
 

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They allow RAM 2500's in the Netherlands??
I won't disagree that EV is the direction the world is heading, but in the meantime, let me offer a more positive diesel story with our 2018 BMW 540d M-Sport X-Drive...
Over the last few years we've been importing more and more trucks. They are actually quite common right now.
I'm a massive car enthusiast and I love things that are outside the realm of conventional. So I actually like the sight and sound of a massive truck.
Just like I love the sounds and vibrations of my 718 and 911 going through the gears and snorting at me on the downshifts.

On the diesel discussion; Carbon isn't the only problem coming out of a car exhaust. A much more pressing issue right now is the NOx crisis we're in over here.
Too many people on too little land driving too many cars, building too much stuff and eating too many cows.
Diesel still produces much more NOx than petrol. There are one or two exceptions that almost do just as well in lab conditions. But in real world situations they are still much worse.

You can actually see if with your own eyes if you walk through our forests.
The ground is acidifying because of a massive surplus of NO. The ground can't sustain new growth due to a lack of calcium and magnesium.
That has caused the insect population to crash. The forest floor is no long covered in grass and new plants. They have been replaced by layers and layers of dead leaves.
Leaves no longer decompose because of the lack of insects. Forests that use to be full of life and now quiet wasteland with trees, dumping new leaves that won't decompose every year.
Insects dying has also caused the bird population to crash. This is all due to a massive excess of NO(x).

CO2 is an issue that will cause problems down the road. NOx is causing real issues right now.
To combat this, we've already had our speed limit on the highways decreased from 130 to 100 km/h.
Right now, our agricultural sector is in crisis because they have to change.

We've seen this coming for over a decade and nothing was done until it was much too late.
Diesel has been, and still is, the second largest contributor to the problem. Livestock is the biggest.
Only a fraction of the diesels cars are relatively clean (compared to old diesels). Most of the cars, vans, trucks and tractors are much older.

I was driving a 'clean diesel' in 2014. We actually got tax cuts for buying them because they were so 'clean'. Turned out VW was just fucking with us all.
It had this ERG system that was supposed to clean the exhaust of NOx. Exhaust gas recirculation - Wikipedia
After every few drives, this system cleaned itself. It heated itself to very high temperatures and then dumped all the **** out in the open.
The gasses coming off the car were intolerable. And it just stood there, dumping fumes for 10-15 minutes.
So this car that was so amazing in the lab just dumped it toxic **** when the lab coats had long gone home.
 

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Over the last few years we've been importing more and more trucks. They are actually quite common right now.
I'm a massive car enthusiast and I love things that are outside the realm of conventional. So I actually like the sight and sound of a massive truck.
Just like I love the sounds and vibrations of my 718 and 911 going through the gears and snorting at me on the downshifts.

On the diesel discussion; Carbon isn't the only problem coming out of a car exhaust. A much more pressing issue right now is the NOx crisis we're in over here.
Too many people on too little land driving too many cars, building too much stuff and eating too many cows.
Diesel still produces much more NOx than petrol. There are one or two exceptions that almost do just as well in lab conditions. But in real world situations they are still much worse.

You can actually see if with your own eyes if you walk through our forests.
The ground is acidifying because of a massive surplus of NO. The ground can't sustain new growth due to a lack of calcium and magnesium.
That has caused the insect population to crash. The forest floor is no long covered in grass and new plants. They have been replaced by layers and layers of dead leaves.
Leaves no longer decompose because of the lack of insects. Forests that use to be full of life and now quiet wasteland with trees, dumping new leaves that won't decompose every year.
Insects dying has also caused the bird population to crash. This is all due to a massive excess of NO(x).

CO2 is an issue that will cause problems down the road. NOx is causing real issues right now.
To combat this, we've already had our speed limit on the highways decreased from 130 to 100 km/h.
Right now, our agricultural sector is in crisis because they have to change.

We've seen this coming for over a decade and nothing was done until it was much too late.
Diesel has been, and still is, the second largest contributor to the problem. Livestock is the biggest.
Only a fraction of the diesels cars are relatively clean (compared to old diesels). Most of the cars, vans, trucks and tractors are much older.

I was driving a 'clean diesel' in 2014. We actually got tax cuts for buying them because they were so 'clean'. Turned out VW was just fucking with us all.
It had this ERG system that was supposed to clean the exhaust of NOx. Exhaust gas recirculation - Wikipedia
After every few drives, this system cleaned itself. It heated itself to very high temperatures and then dumped all the **** out in the open.
The gasses coming off the car were intolerable. And it just stood there, dumping fumes for 10-15 minutes.
So this car that was so amazing in the lab just dumped it toxic **** when the lab coats had long gone home.
I appreciate this information and perspective. You've prompted me to want to do additional research myself. Although VW (and by association, Porsche and Audi) got nailed for cheating on their diesel emissions tests, I was under the impression that BMW, which on both our 2012 X5d and 2018 540d, utilized a DEF-based exhaust recirculating system which significantly reduced NOx emissions. Still probably worse than gasoline, but not by the orders of magnitude for unmodified diesels. I need to look into that further to see if my impression was correct based upon facts, or I fell victim to urban legend.

Thanks again.
 

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The BMW hit 47+ mpg on the highway at 75+/- mph. The Prius was barely getting 40 mpg and struggling to maintain speed on the hilly sections.
What I would suspect. On paper a hybrid (EV, too) looks powerful and capable. Push them by acceleerating hard or driving high speeds and their performance and range falls off.
 

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Yeah. There is no holding onto something that is not as good. Battery EV's are gimmicks and politically driven for this short time in history. This is not a function of being stuck in old things. It is about not wanting to drive around in short-range, heavy, flying turds, that also take longer than 3 minutes to refill.

I have not met anyone that wouldnt go for a a Hydrogen based, Lighter than 3200 lbs great range version of their sports car. This is very possible but it is not what China wants.
 

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Not sure why we still discussing this considering We are all here as we have petrol powered belching machines which we all love. Nothing changes that as far as I am concerned and some may say I am sticking my head in the sand and I accept that, it’s still a NO from me 🧐
I always thought that car lovers loved cars. Engineering. Making stuff as fast in a straight line and through the corners as possible.
But ever since EVs showed up, car lovers seem to have turned into petrol and noise lovers.
Sure, noise is part of the fun. But isn't speed and cornering more important in sports cars?

There are hardly any fun EV's out there yet. Except for a handful of electric hyper cars that no one can afford. Why discard them as rubbish when they are not even here yet?
Why not go for a test drive when the electric 718 is finally here and then discard them? ;)
 
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