I wouldnt worry about it, your dealership will use the correct oil for your car. I know C40 is the updated spec, but your 718 has the same engine as my 2018 model which calls for A40 spec in my manual. Nonetheless, any dealership would have the required Porsche oil.

 

Your optimism is noted; however, the Porsche dealer did NOT have the correct C40 oil. I was correct to be suspicious.

The service writer had never even heard of C40 oil or A40 either for that matter, and didn't actually know what specification they intended to put into my car. I showed them some documentation from Porsche showing that my car calls for C40 and that was news to them.

I asked them if they had a directive from Porsche indicating that using an oil different from the one required by my owners manual was OK. They indicated they didn't know of any such document. I just shook my head.

So before changing the oil, they did some investigation with the service people and checked with the parts department. This C40 business was news to everyone. Not a single person was aware of what I thought was common knowledge, at least among those working in a Porsche Dealership. They did indicate that the oil they used was Mobil 1, that it came in bulk, and that it was 5W-40 but the didn't know if it met A40 specs or not.

Realize that they operate from a brand new very impressive building with all the fancy service equipment in view of the luxurious waiting area complete with espresso machine, refrigerator, and so on. It looks as though you're in good hands, but as with most things, it's the people that make the difference.

My previous experience with them has been dismal and this was no different. They are polite, but they seem to know less about my Porsche than I do.

So I asked them to use the C40 oil I brought along and they did. Unfortunately they did something to disable my back up camera, so that is something else I have to deal with now.

While I waited for the oil change, I was chatting with a nice lady having her 7 year old Boxster serviced in anticipation of a cross country trip. Since the dealer more or less "owed" me 6 liters of oil, I asked them if they would give "my" oil (which is A40 and appropriate for her Boxster) and take the charge for oil change off her rather substantial bill. They didn't actually agree but the service writer said, "I'll make something happen". I'll never know, but I have my fingers crossed.

 

Interesting experience. What I keep experiencing myself and hearing is that Porsche dealers in the US are just not at all up to the standards of Lexus or Mazda or Ferrari or any luxury brand dealers. They are way more low rent than that in the US.

So it’s a good reminder to do your diligence and not necessarily trust these dealers. This is the same reason I don’t do tires or alignments or oil changes with them unless you really know someone in particular who works there and will take care of the car.

The best independent shops are just so much better.

 

When I was investing my first DIY oil change, I read about the C40 standard, as called for in my owners manual and called the local Porsche dealer to buy the oil, They too never heard of it. I pointed out that the C40 was the spec for most Porsche models after mid 2019. Its due to the emissions systems in European versions of the cars. I am not sure if the US cars really need the C40 spec vs the older A40. That is something the Father Land has to answer. But clearly the fact that the manual says C40 and the dealer never heard of it is certainly a concern.

'03 Audi RS6 called for a specific Audi spec oil. They would test it. If you did not use the correct oil, they would void your warrantee. BMW uses specific spec oil on the M cars. That too was hard to find as ECS and other suppliers offered the lesser spec oil. Longlife-01 vs Longlife-01-FE. Little differences matter I guess..

Anyway I found a supplier of the proper C40 spec oil and will DIY....so I know it is done right.

Mike

 

... snip........... I pointed out that the C40 was the spec for most Porsche models after mid 2019. Its due to the emissions systems in European versions of the cars .......... snip...........

I suspect you're right about C40 being emissions related; however, direct injection engines with turbochargers are prone to low speed pre-ignition and the C40 oil is designed to resist that problem.

I also have read in literature published by some companies who market A40 oil that their oil also combats LSPI. Therefore I would not be surprised if there were a document from Porsche saying that it's OK to use A40 in the newer US spec cars but not with the European cars which have monitored gasoline particulate filters. But as far as I can tell, such a document does not exist.

So, until I learn more, I'm gonna' stick with using C40 oil.

What is really disappointing is the fact that my Porsche dealer (and others) knows nothing about this situation. I want my dealer to be more tech savvy than I am.

I'm reminded that years ago Frank Zappa warned us all when he said (I'm paraphrasing) if you intend to cope with modern civilization, you must prepare yourself for the fact that the majority of people are real dumb-asses. Sad to say, every day old Frank is proven right........................ Sigh.😢

 

The following appears on Mobil's website: PdsDetailsPage

Mobil 1™ ESP X3 0W-40 is an advanced full synthetic engine oil specifically designed to provide outstanding performance for high powered engines, providing outstanding engine cleanliness, wear protection, strong durability and advanced fuel economy*. Mobil 1 ESP X3 0W-40 is our latest technology developed in cooperation with Porsche, one of our key European Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs). Mobil 1 ESP X3 0W-40 has been expertly engineered to help prolong the life in new emerging gasoline powered European vehicles.​

Mobil 1 ESP X3 0W-40 is recommended for high-performance engines requiring GPFs (gasoline particulate filters). Mobil 1 ESP X3 0W-40 can only be used in the vehicles for which it is approved. It is not backward compatible with vehicle engines requiring an A40, C30 or C20.​

So, were mid-2019 and beyond Porsche engines so different they can no longer use A40? And if so, what damage may have occurred as a result of Porsche dealers who failed to service cars appropriately by using C40?

My understanding is A40 was developed to prevent GPF damage and higher emissions accruing from GPF degradation. If true, then I would seriously like to know whether the lubricating properties of A40 are better or worse than those of C40. An empirical comparison would provide answers...I know, wishful thinking .

 

FYI.. Porsche Oil Types

“Porsche C40 Oil Spec
This is a new oil formulation from Porsche that has been introduced and recommended for select late 2019 - 2020 onward Porsche gasoline engines. From the information we currently have this oil specification will be recommended in 2020 onward Porsche opposed flat four cylinder and opposed flat six cylinder gasoline engines. This is more less a Mid to Low SAPS (Low Sulphated Ash Phosphorus Sulfur) version of the already popular Porsche A40 specification. Most 2020 and newer Porsche models are equipped with more modern gasoline exhaust emission systems. The Porsche C40 oil formulation will optimize the life expectancy of these gasoline emission systems while still maintaining a high temperature high shear viscosity HTHS of 3.5 mPa*s or greater. Also, the TBN requirements for a Porsche C40 specification will be 8.0 or greater. from our current information this will correspond to an ACEA C3 oil specification and a 0W-40 or 5W-40 viscosity.

Important Note: To minimize mechanical engine issues a Porsche A40 should never be used in place of a Porsche C40 specification oil. If you are unable to source a Porsche C40 specification oil in your region, when low engine oil level emergencies arise, or when oil change intervals have been drastically past due. An ACEA C3 and SAE 0W-40 or 5W-40 can be used in place of a Porsche C40 oil. However, an engine oil change service should be performed as soon as possible when a Porsche C40 approved oil can be sourced.”

 

@BobS's "Important Note" states "to minimize mechanical engine issues a Porsche A40 should never be used in place of Porsche C40 specification oil." By "mechanical engine issues" does this really imply GPF health?

Mobil 1 states the new C40 is not backwards compatible, which doesn't seem to make sense to this non-engineer. If C40 is specially designed to optimize the life expectancy of the latest gasoline emission systems (e.g. GPF's), then how would C40 harm non-GPF engines? Is it possible the higher level of SAPS in A40 promotes better engine lubricating properties than the low-SAPS C40? If true, and if it only harms the GPF, which we don't have, then wouldn't we in the North America be better off using A40 in every 718 manufactured to date?

Mobil 1 specs on their website:

	Mobil 1 A40 - Old Formula Oil	Mobil 1 C40 - New Formula Oil
Grade	SAE 0W-40	SAE 0W-40
Viscosity Index, ASTM D2270	185	204
Mini-Rotary Viscometer, Apparent Viscosity, -40 C, mPa.s, ASTM D4684	21600	None Stated
Flash Point, Cleveland Open Cup, °C, ASTM D92	226	230
Hi-Temp Hi-Shear Viscosity @ 150 C 1x10(6) sec(-1), mPa.s, ASTM D4683	3.6	3.8
Ash, Sulfated, mass%, ASTM D874	1.3	None Stated
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40 C, mm2/s, ASTM D445	71	None Stated
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100 C, mm2/s, ASTM D445	12.9	14.1
Pour Point, °C, ASTM D97	-60	-48
Total Base Number, mgKOH/g, ASTM D2896	12.6	None Stated
Density @ 15 C, g/cm3, ASTM D4052	0.846	0.846

Again, I'm not an engineer, nor have I the benefit of playing one on TV. Therefore, not sure how we should interpret the specs as one oil being superior to the other (with the exception of GPF health).

The cancer in my prostate gland was surgically removed in 2016, effectively leaving the gland's "empty shell" that performs no function. Therefore, I no longer require any supplements or foods (doesn't mean I don't eat them) that promote good prostate health. I view our lack of a GPF in a similar vein, the container is present; however, the particulate filtering mechanism is not. Thus it seems to me, we should use the oil spec that gives our engines the best chance of a long life without consideration for the GPF, which our North American cars don't have.

Furthermore, it appears very few of our dealers have been using the proper spec oil for mid-2019 or newer 718s. If true, then my non-engineer trained intuition tells me that, in the grand scheme of things here in NA, using A40 or C40 matters very little...OR, perhaps this is the source of @Graustark's engine failure (which I highly doubt).

Engineers unite and help restore my sanity...am I way off base here?

 

......... snip.................Engineers unite and help restore my sanity...am I way off base here?

Unite to what end? I'm an engineer and I suspect several other forum members are too; however, my area of study was aerodynamics. That included some chemistry, the study of fluids, and a bit of training in lubrication as well. Plus I've picked up a few tips along the way. But I am NOT an oil engineer nor am I a Porsche engine design engineer.

So what you speculate about could very well be true, but there could also be some important factor that we on this forum have no idea about. There has been more talk about GPFs than Low Speed Pre Ignition, but I'm pretty sure that's an issue. Is the A40 as good fighting that problem as C40? I don't know.

So no matter how many people chime in here claiming to be engineers and no matter how many people think A40 is OK, I'm gonna' continue to use C40 rather than make a guess.

The fact that Porsche dealerships are clueless should surprise nobody these days. People who should care, just don't give a crap and I don't trust my local Porsche dealer as far as I can spit, even though their new shop is as fancy as you could ever dream.

And the fact that many cars calling for C40 got filled with A40 and didn't blow up immediately is not a good data point to rely on either. Porsche even says it can be used in an emergency, but they go on to say change it ASAP. Does that apply to European cars only? Again, I don't know. But if so, I wonder why they didn't say so.

I hope what you are guessing is true, but I'm going to wait.

 

Really great info here. I think the smart thing to do will be to take my 718 to an independent shop I trust, except for warranty work. I did that on GT3’s before anyway because the mechanics at our Porsche dealers are definitely not experienced or careful enough to manage a GT3 for sure.

 

So... I'm getting closer to finishing break-in period and plan to get my oil changed along with some other things.

I'm somewhat limited on Porsche-focused mechanics, certainly in terms of the convenience of the planned indy location's proximity to my house, so hoping for a really good experience/beginning relationship with this place. A question or 2 that I know may generate differing opinions... should I ask the indy shop what oil they use? Would that come across as disrespectful and/or risk the relationship? I can get the Mobil 1 ESP X3 C40 specific oil cited in the manual at my local Autozone, but slightly worried how that my go off with the shop I'm planning to use soon. First time I've really cared this much about the oil used for changes.

I guess the simplest answer is to just ask, but was wondering what others think/maybe have done in a similar situation.

 

It is definitely not rude at all. I have 3 indy's that I work with regularly. Each of them has notes on what I prefer for certain cars. The conversation starts with "hey, I'm really excited about you helping me maintain this car going forward. Here are some things that I do with it and some things which I want to discuss...."

 

So I stopped by the indy I was/am planning to use… to introduce myself, explain how important and enjoyable a good car shop relationship is to me, etc, wanted to run by them what I wanted to get done (in approx 22 days since I’m averaging 22 miles/day and have about 440 before 2000), which is an oil change, alignment, and maybe the GT4 shift kit install.

I asked if I could bring my own oil to which he quickly and clearly said no. I then asked what oil he uses, he looked at me funny (maybe not the best start?) and I asked if they use C40, he said A40. I explained that the manual states C40 and he asked what year my car was (2022). He reiterated they don’t accept customers bringing in oil, so I asked if he’d use/have C40 and he said they’d use whatever I wanted, in that “I give up” way. He also initially balked at the short shift kit install saying he doesn’t do aftermarket part installs/modifications (explained he doesn’t do exhaust mods, etc), but after I explained it was a Porsche product and that I already had the part, he seemed to be more ok with it.

Meh, I don’t know… my gut meter says to look elsewhere. This place is about 3-4 miles from my house, so I was hoping to really have a great feel. There’s another shop further away, 10-15 miles, that also gets positive reviews. I’ll drive out there to give them the same opportunity.

The whole A40 vs C40 has really thrown me for a loop, haha.

 

So I stopped by the indy I was/am planning to use… to introduce myself, explain how important and enjoyable a good car shop relationship is to me, etc, wanted to run by them what I wanted to get done (in approx 22 days since I’m averaging 22 miles/day and have about 440 before 2000), which is an oil change, alignment, and maybe the GT4 shift kit install.

I asked if I could bring my own oil to which he quickly and clearly said no. I then asked what oil he uses, he looked at me funny (maybe not the best start?) and I asked if they use C40, he said A40. I explained that the manual states C40 and he asked what year my car was (2022). He reiterated they don’t accept customers bringing in oil, so I asked if he’d use/have C40 and he said they’d use whatever I wanted, in that “I give up” way. He also initially balked at the short shift kit install saying he doesn’t do aftermarket part installs/modifications (explained he doesn’t do exhaust mods, etc), but after I explained it was a Porsche product and that I already had the part, he seemed to be more ok with it.

Meh, I don’t know… my gut meter says to look elsewhere. This place is about 3-4 miles from my house, so I was hoping to really have a great feel. There’s another shop further away, 10-15 miles, that also gets positive reviews. I’ll drive out there to give them the same opportunity.

The whole A40 vs C40 has really thrown me for a loop, haha.

I’d go with your gut and stay away, unless of course the other guy is worse. Yikes! . He could have at least explained why C40 is not required — e.g. only really necessary for European models with GPF, Porsche’s manual is one size fits all, so they just state C40, etc. But he either doesn’t know or couldn’t be bothered to explain. Not good, either way. Good luck!

 

He was surprised by it, the C40, for sure… like he’s never heard of it almost.

I was just rethinking the whole communication… he also asked me “doesn’t it come with a maintenance package?”, like he was even questioning why I’d bring a new car to his shop for service? I don’t know… I think you’re right BobS.

 

I had good luck contacting Porsche NA for information once. Someone there should be able to provide info on correct oils for specific years/models.

 

I’ll try this… I can’t believe I’m starting to stress out over engine oil, haha.

 

Found a highly reviewed shop that will let me bring my oil and/or they use Motul products and will have their distributor send whatever oil I want used. The shop is run by a few young guys/ex Porsche techs, so I’m feeling good about this. They took over an existing shop that was run for a long time by the previous owner, also with a good reputation it appears.

My only additional thought/question was that the owner I spoke to says he/they do a more “labor intensive” alignment, he described it as a track-focused alignment, using string and tape measure. He said it’s very different than those received at a Goodyear, Tire Kingdom, etc. I’m so inexperienced here… is this normal? Should I pass on that alignment process? If totally fine, than I’m good too. Thanks!

 

........ snip;................“labor intensive” alignment, he described it as a track-focused alignment, using string and tape measure. He said it’s very different than those received at a Goodyear, Tire Kingdom, etc. I’m so inexperienced here… is this normal? Should I pass on that alignment process? ......... snip.................

I've done "string and tape measure" alignments many times after replacing and/or modifying suspension components but only to get the alignment close enough to take the vehicle to a real alignment shop. Yes, it's labor intensive, but it is not nearly as precise as the measurement you can get using modern alignment equipment. In the hands of a skilled operator, a modern alignment rig can be very accurate something you can't count on using a string. So why wouldn't a shop use a good machine? They cost a fortune and a small shop doing general work can't justify the cost. So you will find the best machines at a busy alignment shop or at a big automobile dealership.

And it is true that the alignment you might want for track or autocross purposes might be different from the alignment you would use for street use. It is also true that a normal alignment shop might refuse to use anything other than the factory specifications when they do your alignment, perhaps because they're worried about liability issues.

I go to a good shop with a fancy machine and have a "street" alignment on my cars because none of them are dedicated race cars at the moment. Even though I autocross two of them, they're really primarily street cars. However, some of my autocross buddies go to a local shop who also has a fancy machine for "special" alignments more suitable for autocross use because the cars they use for autocross arrive on a trailer and are not even street legal. That makes sense to me.

Unless your car is a dedicated race/autocross vehicle, why would you want a "track focused" alignment? If I were you, I would go for an alignment done by a compitent alignment shop using modern equipment and using Porsche factory specifications. I would pass on anyone offering a "string and tape measure" alignment, especially if they intend to charge you money for it.

 

I agree with @Mozella. All of the race/track focused shops here use the electronic Hunter racks.

 

Agreed. It's very hard to beat an experienced operator + a Hunter rig.

 

Heard back from a 2nd nicely reviewed shop, which specifies they specialize in Porsches and has been around 30+ years, also somewhat nearby too, they offer the Motul/Liqui Moly/Castrol 5w-40 C40 spec oils in house… or I can bring my own. He does a machine alignment.

I think I’ll head that way.

Thanks so much again for the insightful responses.

 

this video will help explains why C40 is needed these days. Direct injection

 

Great link. Thanks.
If you want to nerd out and learn more about soot in your oil caused by direct injection, look at this: Characterisation of soot in oil from a gasoline direct injection engine using Transmission Electron Microscopy

It will tell you more than you need to know about soot in your oil and if you have really lost your mind, the paper lists 41 links so you can fine even more studies about soot formation.
Full disclosure: I scanned the first paper and found it interesting but I did NOT dive into the 41 other links.

What I learned is that soot formation is real and it's not just a problem with diesel engines. We get it in our direct injection engines and it sounds to me like it could very well be a problem if you use an otherwise great oil, but without the proper additives to deal with soot formation. Some smart guys figured out how to test the effects of soot in the oil as it relates to wearing out engine components, specifically timing chains, and some oils are formulated to pass that test. Those are the oils I'm gonna' shop for.

 

Mozella, thanks for your staunch advocacy for the right oil.

In my really super duper novice attempt to understand the EE vid + online research, I think, especially being in FL, that I’ll be ok with the Motul 8100 Xclean Gen2 5w-40 C40 (that’s a string of words/letters I’d never imagined I’d be used to repeating, ever) oil offered by my local shop (choosing this vs the equally spec’d LM 5w-40).

If I ever move north, maybe even GA, I may change to a 0w-40 C40 variant.

 

Motul are fine oils, Have no reservations whatsoever about using the 5w40 C40.

Mobil 1 C40 or Motul C40, No perceivable difference.

 

Ok, last question, maybe… shop said their bulk oil, Castrol Edge M 5w-40, is a C40 spec. What’s the thoughts on using Castrol, vs Motul/LM? Is it obvious I request one of the other 2 or would you go with that since it’s in-house and doesn’t require a special ask, etc.

I have no clue Re quality/reputation of oils, Blackstone testing results, etc… if I need to be pointed in a direction to better ask my question, please let me know that too, thx!

 

Any C40 spec, use without hesitation.
The Edge 'M' in C40 is fairly new.
Nothing wrong with Castrol !

 

I can ask the shop when I visit/make an appt. He said that’s their bulk oil.

 

FYI … Liqui Moly Top Tec 4110 - 5W-40 is German made and readily available via several online retailers, and their own outlets in the US.

 

See, another question

Should I make sure the shop does anything to the service reminder? My curiosity is, considering I’ll will have another oil change before the free dealership service year is due (I’m planning to do oil changes every 4-5k), and I don’t want to introduce unwanted issues/confusion with the dealership before that first “free” service… should the shop
reset anything or leave it alone so the service reminder continues to track to that first year/10k schedule?

Obviously, beyond that free change, I do not plan to use the dealership for maintenance services.

Hopefully I’m making sense. Thx again!

 

Guys, do a google search of A40 vs C40 and you’ll find out that C40 is designed to be used with particulate filters mandated in Europe. If you have a newer 718 with one installed use C40. If not, you can use A40.

 

Porsche has not said that A40 is OK for use in my car even though it doesn't have a GPF. Perhaps they will some day or perhaps not.

But it is comforting to know that you have announced that A40 IS OK.

My attorney is drawing up the legal papers so that you can take over the warranty responsibility from Porsche. Please post your mailing address or the mailing address of your legal team so we can send you the documents.

My attorney is still working on how large a bond you should post but it should be in the low seven figures. He wants you to know that I, along with countless other Porsche owners are grateful that we can rest easy knowing that if anything goes wrong, (even in the long term) caused by using A40 oil, you will step up and cover our repair expenses. 🤡

 

I think what @Mozella is requiring is a link to a source from Porsche describing what @kabob has written. I strongly suspect that American Porsche dealers are using bulk A40 Mobile One, but I have no source. I haven't rummaged through a dealership's dumpster to see if it is filled with individual oil containers, but the idea is intriguing.

 

I know for certain that my local Porsche dealer was prepared to put bulk A40 into my car which calls for C40. But not because they have a directive from Porsche saying that A40 is OK. The disappointing answer is that neither the service manager, the tech who was servicing the car, nor the guy in the parts department had even heard of C40 and were completely unaware that it was specified for newer cars.

 

This guy has a pretty informative take on the situation. One of the better explanations that I’ve found. Unfortunately, it doesn’t really resolve the main question about whether or not A40 is OK in US cars.

New oil for the 4.0 engine

With the advent of the Gas Particulate Filter(GPF)) in Europe, a new oil was necessitated, and Porsche has instituted a new recommendation for the cars over there, calling their specification C40. The oil is not backward compatible with the older A40 recommendation, but since this was Europe I...

www.planet-9.com

 

You know what is interesting, if you go to PorscheUSA oil page and follow it from there, you end up on the Mobile Oil page where I put in my car's info and then for the next year. For my 2019 Porsche base Cayman, it recommends the FS version, which is A40. If you bounce that up to 2020+ you get ESP X3 version, with is C40. So that's the question to ask, IMHO, is your service department using FS for 2019 and older and ESP X3 2020 and newer?

ADDED:
This from the PCA in 2020 about this question:
submitted by Pedro Bonilla [SFL] on Thu 11/05/2020 10:31 pm

Here's the story directly from the prvervial horse's mouth:
C40 spec oil is required, instead of A40 to protect the Gas Particulate Filters. All 2018 and newer Porsches state that in the manual, but those vehicles (model years 2018, 2019 and 2020) did not come to the US and Canada equipped with the gas particulate filter system so they could use the A40 spec oil.
For model year 2021 and newer, every Porsche imported to North America will be equipped with EPS and requires C40 spec oil.
C40 oil is not readily available, as you've found out, so you will have to take it to the dealer for oil changes untill you can find the new oil. Right now, very few dealers have any of the C40 oil at all but they should be well stocked before year's end.
The new oil has a part number VW5100.
That's all I have right now.

 

You know what is interesting, if you go to PorscheUSA oil page and follow it from there, you end up on the Mobile Oil page where I put in my car's info and then for the next year. For my 2019 Porsche base Cayman, it recommends the FS version, which is A40. If you bounce that up to 2020+ you get ESP X3 version, with is C40. So that's the question to ask, IMHO, is your service department using FS for 2019 and older and ESP X3 2020 and newer?

ADDED:
This from the PCA in 2020 about this question:
submitted by Pedro Bonilla [SFL] on Thu 11/05/2020 10:31 pm

Here's the story directly from the prvervial horse's mouth:
C40 spec oil is required, instead of A40 to protect the Gas Particulate Filters. All 2018 and newer Porsches state that in the manual, but those vehicles (model years 2018, 2019 and 2020) did not come to the US and Canada equipped with the gas particulate filter system so they could use the A40 spec oil.
For model year 2021 and newer, every Porsche imported to North America will be equipped with EPS and requires C40 spec oil.
C40 oil is not readily available, as you've found out, so you will have to take it to the dealer for oil changes untill you can find the new oil. Right now, very few dealers have any of the C40 oil at all but they should be well stocked before year's end.
The new oil has a part number VW5100.
That's all I have right now.

what is EPS?