Very cool! I’m looking forward to reading more about your progress.

Is it possible for you to weigh each component that you add and remove to get a sense of total net weight gain?

 

Yep, good idea. I will try to weigh the incoming and the components we take out. I will also ask them to take as many pics as possible (I am not doing the install, just the programming). Too old to crawl under the dash board of any car!

 

I have been slow to post anything due to delays in getting my car into the shop and getting the products we have chosen for the upgrade, For amplification, we will be using (2) Alpine X-A90V. Each amp will provide 4 channels of 100 watts and one channel of 500 watts. The 500 watt channels will be used for the subs with each of the other speakers getting 100 watts. The system will be a quad amped system with a dedicated amplifier for each speaker. This eliminates passive crossover networks which reduce efficiency and introduce unwanted distortion and phase shift.

The DSP is an Alpine PXE-0850X which will be fed from the digital optical output from the PCM 4. Stand by for more info on the speakers, acoustic treatments and tuning.

 

I missed this when you first posted it. I'll be super interested to see how you end up doing your subs. What are you using to adapt the MOST150 signal and interface to something usable? Zen-V?

 

Ive spoken to my local car audio hi fi expert and he has suggested a (sequential 3 stage improvement plan)
step 1, replace speakers with 3 way Focal 6” woofer / 2” mid, 1” tweeter cost £200 for speakers, £200 fitting
Step 2 - 6 channel Amp spec TBC £500 ish + fitting
Step 3 - DSP - Spec TBC - £500ish + fitting and tuning to tune the sounds stage timings etc
all in, if step 1-3 were done at one, cost around £2,200

 

I'm also UK based - where are you in the country? Have you had this done, and if so how is it?

 

So, meaning no disrespect to your car audio expert, I disagree. Simply putting new, better speakers in an existing system will almost always make the system worse. The new speakers will have a different frequency response, different low and high frequency extension and different efficiency….so using the crossovers, amps and eq of the OEM system will make it worse. Adding a higher quality amp, assuming you have all passive crossovers could improve your sound due to higher output, greater damping factor, lower noise, etc. The DSP will do nothing without the other two. So, my recommendation would be:

1. Do it all at once and get it optimized for your car and taste.
2. Do the amp first, then do the speakers and DSP at the same time.

Just my 2 cents

 

So, I have been in the AV business for about 40 years and have been trained by the best. I have a hard time getting my arms around this MOST150 interface. The only digital interfaces I am specifically familiar with are Coaxial, Optical TOSLink, HDMI and AES. Your PCM4 has an analog output and at TOSLink digital output…nothing more. I had Sima disable my analog output and enable my TOSLink output as that is the only real option to maximize audio fidelity. And the Alpine DSP mentioned above has a digital TOSLink input….so I am good. Maximum quality and dynamic range with minimal A/D and D/A conversions.

I suspect that the MOST150 interface and similar formats are subsets of the basic digital interfaces that are available and therefore not critical, but I guess I will find out shortly when my car is done.

 

It's not TOSLINK output out of PCM4. The optical output is MOST150. I did the same thing on my Cayman, which came with the Sound Package Plus, I reprogrammed the PCM to enable the optical output. It's still a proprietary connection and signal though, and you need a device to convert it to something like TOSLINK. I used the Nav-TV Zen-V.

You can see the optical connection on the bottom right (cable is orange):

 

You may well be correct. I will know shortly as I have a top 12V integrator connecting my PCM4 to my Alpine DSP via at TOSLink connection….might not work based on your info. I should know in the next few days….stand by! I will post everything I see/learn/do.

 

I have an idea….I have direct factory connections with Alpine, JBL, Sound Stream, Audio Control and more. I will reach out to our technical support folks to figure this out.

 

Hey All,

My upgrade is complete. Here are all of the details:

Equipment
DSP - Alpine PXE-0850X
Amplifiers - (2) Alpine X-A90V
Subs - JBL FUSE 8" Woofers
MOST150 2017+ Porsche Converter
OEM Speaker Replacements - all in OEM locations
Focal Utopia 8" mid-range woofers
Illusion Carbon C3 3" components (mids and tweeters
Acoustical Treatment
Soundshield (2 tubes)
Other
Misc cables and adaptors

I hired SIMA to log into my system to turn off the analog output from my PCM4 and turn on the optical output so that I would have the highest quality source signal possible. When you do this it shuts off the analog output, so only one can operate at a time. The DSP is installed on the floor of the Frunk. The installers made a custom panel
that sits on top of the DSP with supports around the edges for air circulation. The two amplifiers are located on top of the DSP custom panel, and they in turn have another custom panel so that I can still put lots of stuff in the Frunk.

The OEM speakers are just crap. Stamped baskets, tiny little voice coils and magnets, just terrible. Here they are compared to the replacements...which all feature carbon fiber cones, over sized magnets

Midrange drivers

JBL Subs are mounted behind each seat without sacrificing any leg room.

Installation

Digital Output to DSP
The optical (digital) output of the PCM4 is connected to the optical (digital) input of the MOST150 converter. The optical of the MOST150 converter is connected to the optical input of the Alpine DSP. This is now a 4-way, active sound system and all of the crossovers, time correction, equalization, HPF's and LPF's are handled by the DSP. None of the tuning controls provided in the amplifiers is being used. The DSP offers 12 analog outputs. I am using 4 stereo pairs or 8 total outputs, each of which feeds one channel of an amplifier.

Amplifiers
Each Alpine X-A90V has 5 channels of high quality amplification. The standard configuration provides 4 channels of 75 watts and 1 channel of 300 watts at 4 ohms. But you can also bridge two of the 75 watt channels to get 200 watts from them (you sacrifice one channel doing this). In my new setup, the JBL's each get 300 watts, the Focal's get 200 watts each, the Illusion mid drivers get 75 watts and the tweeters get 75 watts. Gain on all of the amplifier channels started out at nominal. The only adjustment I had to make was to bump the JBL's by about 5-6db as they are bit less efficient.

Crossovers
I started with the JBL's and quickly discovered they have little or no output below about 30Hz, so I set a HPF at 30Hz. For the LPF, I started at 200Hz, but they were very boxy sounding. I kept lowering the filter until I found the sweet spot at 55Hz. FWIW, all filters are set to 18db/octave. Next I tuned in the Focals. They were very happy starting at 55Hz and their lit states that they will run as high as 1K, but they got very beamy at high frequencies, so after much experimenting, I ended up at 250Hz....which worked out great as that was the best HPF for the mid drivers. They run from 250Hz to 2kHz and the tweeters obviously run from there up.

Tuning
First lets establish that no matter how I go about tuning a sound system, there are people that will disagree...no surprise there. My preference is to do everything I can without using EQ, then use as little EQ as possible, always trying to cut rather than boost. I spent multiple hours working on the tune and I do not think it is perfect yet, but it is very dam good. I also had several of my friends/customers in the business sit in on various sessions to get their opinions. I setup the time correction for the middle of the car, so that it would sound as good for the passenger as it does for the driver (I know not everyone likes that approach, but my wife loves music, so....). Next we started tweaking the gain and crossover points to fix problems that we heard. We used streamed music from Pandora and Tidal since the signal coming from the FM tuner was very mediocre. After we did everything we could with levels and filter points, we finally used a little EQ....mostly on the tweeter to soften the reflections coming off the windshield.

Final Product
They guys that did the installation were absolutely top notch. No rattles, creaks or leftover parts! They used just enough sound dampening material to kill the resonances from the car. It just feels tighter and more solid than it did (and that is saying something). When using a high quality source (streaming through Car Play) it sounds amazing....loud, clean, clear, with an amazing amount of bass considering that I did not modify any of the speaker positions or give up any leg room, foot room or storage. This far exceeds what I expected to be able to do in a car this small...and I am extremely picky about my AV (I have a very serious theater in my home...this is not close to the theater, but again, better than expected).

One obvious question I am expecting....how much weight did I add? All the new stuff came in at about 62 lbs, but I removed about 8 lbs, so net gain is about 54 lbs. PS - I did not weigh every cable.

Additional Pictures

 

Feel free to contact them, I would be surprised if they say you can directly use TOSLINK. The MOST Bus is not new, it's been in use by a lot of vehicle manufacturers since the mid to late 2000s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOST_Bus

What is new, is MOST150, which has a different encryption/DRM. Back in the MOST25 days, lots of aftermarket vendors were able to crack the encryption and intercept the signal. Mobridge, Audison, and others. To the best of my knowledge, NAV-TV is still the only company that has figured out MOST150.

 

All very interesting. Used to love my ICE back in the day...still have a lot of JL/Alpine/PG and Kefs still in my custom car sat in garage. A garage I used to go to a lot had the UK SPL record for years; back in the late 90's/early 00's up nr 150+Db. It was an insane feeling. Never heard of MOST I must admit so Im really interested to see where this goes and if it works without the conversion or not....

And the subs. Behind the seats? Yup, gotta see that😆. Keeping my 🤞🏻that it all works for you.

All the best,

Dave😉

 

You're probably already too far down the "path" here - but might want to research what MusicarNW has done. They have a complete "package" - Morel speakers, Mosconi amp/DSP, plug and play wiring. I got in on their GB on RL, so still waiting for parts to ship. But I already have their "stage 2" setup which is just an updated tweeter and amp/DSP (leaving the stock mids and woofers in place) and the improvement there was substantial.

 

Ive heard such good things about them. I’d love to hear the system.

 

I've been super impressed with it. I'm kind of a SQ audiophile dork.

I've had previously, before my 718 Spyder w/SPP:
2014 Boxster w/SPP
2015 Boxster S w/Bose
2017 Macan w/Bose
2014 Cayenne w/Bose
2015 Cayenne wi/Burmester (still own this one)
(and many cars with my own custom built audio systems)

I also have a reasonable 2-channel home system where I do find myself listening to 24-bit 192kHz audio on most evenings.

In my opinion... when it comes to sports cars... the SPP sounds better than the Bose. The Bose just glares, tries too hard, and IMO just falls on it's face and doesn't do anything well. At least SPP it's got a mostly flat response and doesn't color the music too much. The tweeters are a definite weak spot (and I did start with the Musicar tweeters first, as I was skeptical but willing to try it and was surprised by the improvement that I jumped on Stage 2 a few weeks later.) I had a loaner 991 Carrera for a few days that had the Burmester in it, and even that, I wasn't super impressed. IMO it's what the Bose should have sounded like to start with (tho it did get VERY loud and remain crystal clear all the way up.)

Bose in the SUVs actually doesn't sound terrible though. Not great but listenable enough to shrug it off, drive and listen without cringing.

The Burmester in the Cayenne sounds fantastic though. Really, really good for a stock system. Loud, clear, rich and dynamic.

I would very easily put the Musicar Stage 2 in SPP-equipped sports cars above the Burmester in the sports cars. Supposedly the Stage 2 when starting with Bose sounds better.

I would almost put the Stage 2 as equivalent to the Burmester in the Cayenne. It's close. What the Burm in the Cayenne has, that the Stage 2 (SPP equipped car) doesn't is a subwoofer. The Musicar gets surprisingly great low end (really, it's shocking, it does sound good) which is great for most music - even some EDM. But you don't get those really low reverberating tones from some EDM, most hip-hop/rap, etc.

Really, I was 100% satisfied with the Stage 2. Then they offered a group buy with a 10% discount on Stage 3 and in a moment of weakness... I sprung for it. The few reviews I have read on RL about going from Stage 2 to Stage 3 are night-and-day difference. I am excited.

 

I've been super impressed with it. I'm kind of a SQ audiophile dork.

I've had previously, before my 718 Spyder w/SPP:
2014 Boxster w/SPP
2015 Boxster S w/Bose
2017 Macan w/Bose
2014 Cayenne w/Bose
2015 Cayenne wi/Burmester (still own this one)
(and many cars with my own custom built audio systems)

I also have a reasonable 2-channel home system where I do find myself listening to 24-bit 192kHz audio on most evenings.

In my opinion... when it comes to sports cars... the SPP sounds better than the Bose. The Bose just glares, tries too hard, and IMO just falls on it's face and doesn't do anything well. At least SPP it's got a mostly flat response and doesn't color the music too much. The tweeters are a definite weak spot (and I did start with the Musicar tweeters first, as I was skeptical but willing to try it and was surprised by the improvement that I jumped on Stage 2 a few weeks later.) I had a loaner 991 Carrera for a few days that had the Burmester in it, and even that, I wasn't super impressed. IMO it's what the Bose should have sounded like to start with (tho it did get VERY loud and remain crystal clear all the way up.)

Bose in the SUVs actually doesn't sound terrible though. Not great but listenable enough to shrug it off, drive and listen without cringing.

The Burmester in the Cayenne sounds fantastic though. Really, really good for a stock system. Loud, clear, rich and dynamic.

I would very easily put the Musicar Stage 2 in SPP-equipped sports cars above the Burmester in the sports cars. Supposedly the Stage 2 when starting with Bose sounds better.

I would almost put the Stage 2 as equivalent to the Burmester in the Cayenne. It's close. What the Burm in the Cayenne has, that the Stage 2 (SPP equipped car) doesn't is a subwoofer. The Musicar gets surprisingly great low end (really, it's shocking, it does sound good) which is great for most music - even some EDM. But you don't get those really low reverberating tones from some EDM, most hip-hop/rap, etc.

Really, I was 100% satisfied with the Stage 2. Then they offered a group buy with a 10% discount on Stage 3 and in a moment of weakness... I sprung for it. The few reviews I have read on RL about going from Stage 2 to Stage 3 are night-and-day difference. I am excited.

Thank you so much for the details! My experience with Burmester has been very mixed with Mercedes and Porsche (991 and Panamera). Sometimes fine, sometimes garish. Never really been that great. I haven't tried the Cayenne Burmester system. I'm just annoyed that the Burmester systems vary so much. I understand the cars are so different, but you would still expect they are aiming for some sort of house sound. But it doesn't seem like they do at all. It's all over the place with them.

I think your taste is similar to mine. Some systems do try too hard and glare and those I will just never listen to (or just use them for podcasts). I like that Musicar talked about sheen and glare in their own description of their house sound. Glare and timing/rhythm weirdness are the dealbreakers for me at home or in the car. That's when I go back to a podcast.

I want to try Musicar, but I wish I could find a way to take a listen. I don't want to open up my brand new door panels without first at least hearing their sound.

 

Yes I agree - I always just kind of "expected" the Burm to sound amazing, given the name and upcharge! The first time I heard the Burm was in my Cayenne (brought my Dire Straits DVD-Audio disc with me on the test drive... SOLD!) So I expected the same in the 911 I drove for a bit and came away pretty disappointed. It would have been a no-brainer on my Spyder order but after hearing it in the 911, and after my previous Boxsters, just stuck to SPP and started down the Musicar path right after taking delivery.

 

Same story. I went with SPP on my Spyder after being disappointed in 991 and Panamera. So you had no damage to your car from installing the Stage 2? Did you do it yourself?

 

Nope. Install was cake.. though keep in mind I've done a lot of custom audio in the past, so YMMV. But it was literally all plug and play with one minor exception. The only "modification" is installing the tweeters. If you've ever built plastic model kits... where you have to cut the parts off the plastic sprue? The SPP tweeters are held in the dash by a couple very thin plastic legs. For Bose and Burm cars, the factory knocks these brackets out. So you DO have to "cut" in that you simply use a pair of side cutters to remove the original SPP tweeter brackets so you can fit the Musicar tweeters. The Musicar tweeters install using the Bose and Burm mounting points, and includes all the necessary screws to install.

That's the ONLY thing that isn't reversible. But the tweeters also work with a totally stock system (their tweeters are their "Stage 1") so if you really want to remove the Musicar setup from the car before you sell, just leave the tweeters there, they sound fine.

But otherwise - very easy. Took me about 6 hours total, and that included installing all of the Dynamat on the doors. I took my time removing all the trim pieces, lots of pausing and referring to YouTube etc. to make sure I'm doing it right, etc. It's really not a bad job to do the install yourself if you are patient.

 

Thanks for the info on the install! After finishing up the install on my Macan I'll start the Cayman. I do have a quick question, did you end up using the NAV-TV ZEN-V for the MOST to analog conversion? I'm considering having SIMA switch my MOST Bose system back to analog and just use a Helix DSP with analog inputs from the PCM4.0 radio if that is possible. This will save me $900 on the install since I don't see any alternative to the NAV-TV unit.

 

Yep, had to purchase the MOST converter. I was going for max quality and I believe that staying in the digital domain up the amplifiers is a huge advantage. If you go in analog and use a phone for a streaming service, you will go digital to analog to digital to analog. Every A/D, D/A conversion degrades the fidelity. But you can certainly make the argument that with the engine/road noise, it can only get so good in our cars. But I fight for every ounce of fidelity I can get. FWIW, the fidelity of the FM tuner in the PCM4 is pretty terrible. Have to stream to get a good signal on the front end.

 

i would venture that if both of you were in the same room in a real time discussion this might have gone a bit better…

 

I spent hours taking pictures and writing up details on my experiences, for better or for worse to help other owners make good decisions on their audio upgrades. I just want to be a quiet member reading and learning to improve my experience in my 718 rather than engaging in arguments.

Thanks

 

Okay, since we are taking the gloves off, lets have at it….

“Judging by the fact that you hired a 12v professional, I'm going to assume your 40 years of experience is in home HiFi. I'm also compiling that assumption based on your strong opinions regarding utilizing high-level signal as a pre-amp source, something that's extremely common practice in the automotive HiFi industry. At 20 years I only have half the experience that you do, but it's all been in the automotive side, so I'd like to share my opinion based on what I've learned in that time.”

You start off with an uninformed assumption. My choosing to hire a 12V professional has everything to do with being over 60 years old and not able to crawl under the dash of my Boxster AND having arthritis in my hands, thumbs, knees and back keep me from doing my own installation. I hope you never have these issues limiting what you can physically do. And I hope no one ever critiques your knowledge based on your physical limitations.

Next -The analog outputs of the PCM are relatively undistorted up to a certain volume level, so we have a very usable amount of signal. The signal is free of time correction, all-pass filters, or dynamic EQ. We even have perfect full-range signal from 20hz-20kHz between 4 channels. This means we have a lot of opportunity to create a better soundstage without fighting the factory processing. Knowing this, using the PCM outputs as a pre-amplified signal into a quality DSP is a perfectly viable option. Would it be slightly better with a ZEN module? sure! But not enough so that it warrants the investment and over-complication of installation. After all, car audio is about making the best of a compromised environment, not creating a tiny anechoic chamber for critical listening.

There are a lot of assumptions. Did you do measurements of the THD or IMD of the outputs of your PCM prior to making the statements above? If so, please provide those measurements. Do you know that there is zero time correction (most audio systems of any quality make some effort to get signals to arrive at the same time….and that is time correction. I do not know whether Porsche inserts time correction in either the digital or analog domain, but I suspect you do not either. If I am wrong, please provide the schematics. I totally agree that we are making the best of a bad situation in car audio, but you are minimizing bad decisions in my opinion. When done properly, staying in the digital domain until you are ready to amplify is by FAR the best way to design a digital audio system. I would further suggest that I completely disagree that the ZEN module DOES warrant the investment in a high performance audio system, which is what I was building.

As we are taking the glove off, here we go.

Making statements like "they don't know what they're doing" or "that's a waste of money" are very strong opinions to have based on no actual experience in the practice. Wrong, I have decades of experience in every aspect of audio. And audio in cars, homes, stadiums and theaters have much in common. Distortion is distortion. Bad signal flow is bad. Short cuts suck. Noise is noise. Need I go on?

If using high-level was a futile effort, the car audio industry would have tanked years ago. Using high level signals in a high performance system never works. Garbage in, garbage out. It is done based on monetary limitations, not because it is as good….or better. Please go ahead and refute that statement. Show me an example where using speaker level out puts is superior to a digital or good quality line level analog output.

High-end DSP's wouldn't all have high-level input ports and there'd be no market for OEM integration processors like the JL Audio FiX or the older CleanSweep products. Heck, even your friends at AudioControl have been a huge player in OEM signal integration for a very long time. Utilizing these tools, a strategized design can certainly sound great if executed properly.

Wrong again….Many of these decisions are based on finances, not best practices. Your entire argument is flawed because you do not admit that a high level output is inferior….and it is, 100% of the time. I am not suggesting it cannot be used, it can. And in some cases it might be better than the OEM head unit with its junk speakers and crappy amplifier (like the one that came in my Porsche). But you cannot argue that in any reasonable situation, a high level speaker output is the source of choice.

Lastly, being in the business of selling gear is something that fits a business model like Crutchfield or Best Buy. Being in the business of solutions requires proven results for sustainability — something Musicar has in profusion.

Wrong again…Musicar IS in the business of selling products, just like Crutchfield or Best Buy. What is the difference? They are in business to sell gear, and I respect that. But please do not act like they are altruistic in providing sustainable solutions for the planet while they sell speakers, amps and processors.

Please read your own statements. I do not like arguments. In fact, I asked the moderators to remove my post so that I would not have to waste time with crap like this. You clearly have a financial interest in Musicar. Good for you. But please stop misleading other members with your clearly biased rants. I am not trying to sell anything or promote any business. Can you say the same given the length of your misleading rant?

 

Moderator post

OK all, let's have some chill here. This thread is now getting acrimonious and gaining formal reports and requests for locking it or deleting it entirely. I don't want to do either as there is some good information here and an opportunity for those interested in the different viewpoints to learn about improving the 718 sound system in a variety of ways and at various price points.

The differing opinions MUST NOT deteriorate into personally-oriented fighting and unfounded assumptions or the opportunities mentioned above WILL COME TO AN END.

Greg

 

thank you!!!! YOU ROCK!!!!!!

Thanks so much!

 

My take on all this.
my previous car - merc convertible had the full blown burnmiester thing. It was ok but if you know what I mean, but it was just ok.
my 178 has the bose, inmho I have it set up - for me - correctly and it is far better than what I had in the Merc.
I have the Boxster, Majority of driving roof down And honestly cannot complain about the standard and the volume of what I have. Even at full nutter pelt, it’s really loud enough.

 

 

AWESOME!!!!!! this is great!